[CONAN] Weapon Speed

I rarely move my game away from RAW, even though it might seem otherwise due to these types of posts I make. Really, I just like talking about game mechanics and "what-if" situations.

This rule, though, I think I will implement in my game.

Let me tell you how I got here before I explain the rule. 1st edition AD&D nodded its head towards weapon speed. In a melee, both combatants would roll a d6. No modifiers. Whomever won the toss swung first. If the throw resulted in a tie, the character using the lighter, more maneuverable weapon might get extra attacks, depending on the comparison of his weapon and that of his foe.

I've always loved that freakin' rule. Using a dagger against a foe with a longsword presented a scary situation if that tie came up. The dagger wielder might get one or two additonal attacks that round.

This sure made small weapon usage a tad more viable.

Flash forward to 2nd edition AD&D. The weapon's speed factor was used completely differently. It became a modifier to the Initiative throw. That worked on one level, as when in melee, the combatant with the larger, heavier weapon was skewed to go late in the round, allowing the characters with the smaller, faster weapons to attack first (on average--we're talking about dice throws here).

But, that answer to weapon speed did not work if the character, on his initiave, did something else besides attack. What's wielding a longsword got to do with running to close the porticulls?

Flash forward again to 3rd edition D&D. Any reference to weapon speed is completely thrown out. There is no advantage to wielding fast, small weapons. Weapon selection is an exercise in deciding how many hands to use and which available weapon does the most damage.

Then came the d20 CONAN game. Lots of choices presented themselves for weapon selection. A Finesse weapon is needed if a combatant will be a DEX based fighter (rather than a STR based fighter). Weapons have Armor Penetraion values, thus a cultlass does more damage than a war hammer, but the hammer will bang down armor more quickly than with the cutlass. And, there is an optional rule that nods it head at weapon mass, so that a combatant using a dagger is -2 to parry a foe using a two-handed greatsword (and he gets a +2 modifier to parry the dagger).

But still, there is no simple, mechanical way to account for weapon speed.

Until now.





Here's the rule I've created for my own game. Basically, what it does is touch back to that rule from 1st edition AD&D that occasionally gave lighter, quicker weapons an advantage over heavier, bigger weapons.

ELLIGIBLE WEAPONS: All One-Handed Simple and Martial weapons; Two-Handed piercing weapons.

THE RULE: Whenever a successful attack is made, and minimum damage is thrown (a throw of 1 on the d8 for a Hunting Spear, for example), the character wielding the weapon has found an opportunity for a second, quick strike. He is given a free Attack of Opportunity.







Example:
Regin, the Vanir warrior, uses a two-handed Greatsword against Grule, the Pict, who fights with his Hunting Spear.

The Greatsword is not elligible for the Speed Rule.

The Hunting Spear, since it is a two-handed piercing weapon, is elligible for the Speed Rule. Whenever Grule makes a successful hit, then rolls a "1" on the d8 for damage, Grule may take a free attack on Regin. This simulates jabbing the spear, quickly, twice against the enemy.



Another Example:

Cyrus, the Aquilonian, uses an arming sword against Hoedhar, the Cimmerian, who is using a hunting knife.

Whenever Cyrus hits and rolls damage of "1" on the d10 for his arming sword, Cyrus gains another free Attack of Opportunity on Hoedhar.

Whenever Hoedhar hits Cyrus and rolls damage of "1" on the d4 for his dagger, Hoedhar gains a free Attack of Opportunity on Cyrus.



This won't happen often, but it will happen often enough that small, quick, maneuverable weapons will have a little more bite than they used to.

And, you can see that warrior skill plays the biggest part in being successful on the attack. But, if the attack is successful, then the smaller, lighter weapon will get more attacks, in the long run, against foes.

Hoedhar's dagger, above, will score a second attempt at a hit about 25% of the time after the first hit is made. Yet Cyrus will receive the second hit attempt only about 10% of the time.
 
COMMON SENSE

Of course, the GM will have to use common sense, like he does with every rule in the game.

A whip is an exotic weapon, but for those who live in a land where the whip is considered a normal martial weapon, the GM will have to step in and rule that the whip cannot be used with the weapon speed rule. The weapon is not designed to deliver two quick, successive attacks, as you can with a dagger or a spear.
 
BRAVO, as a guy replaying with a lot of AD-n-D stuff, weapon speed is a good factor to utilize that has been given short shrift by the 3.5 crowd.

Weapon speed makes sense. Daggers should always be faster than two handed war hammers.
 
Spectator said:
BRAVO, as a guy replaying with a lot of AD-n-D stuff, weapon speed is a good factor to utilize that has been given short shrift by the 3.5 crowd.

Weapon speed makes sense. Daggers should always be faster than two handed war hammers.

Thanks man. I think so, too.

I was thinking about the implications of what I wrote above, tonight. First off, I shouldn't call the Speed Attack an "Attack of Opportunity", because the Speed Attack is not limited by AoO rules. The Speed Attack is not "provoked", and you don't need Combat Reflexes to make more than one Speed Attack in a round, should the opportunity come up.

I guess it should be called an Immediate Action. It's a Free Attack that is an Immediate Action.

Second, I should make sure I mention that a character must be proficient with the weapon in order to gain the Speed Attack.

Third, I was think about how this will improve the use of the Spear a bit. All through history, the spear has been a constant weapon chosen by man, yet in D&D-influenced role playing games, players rarely chose the spear as their main weapon. This rule may change that as the Speed Attack gives the spear a little more "umph".

Fourth, I was thinking about a Zamorian street fighter, wielding two sharp daggers. Both weapons doing 1d4 each. This guy is going to get the most out of the Speed Rule, as he should. I've just made him a more viable character type.
 
A couple of tweaks...



ELLIGIBLE WEAPONS (also known as Speed Weapons):

One-Handed weapons and two-handed piercing weapons. (These are weapons that can be used in a quick fashion for a rapid attack.)

Unarmed attacks are considered elligible speed weapons.

Character must have proficiency. (You can't make a Speed Attack if you're not familiar with the use of the weapon.)

Weapon must have a single damage die. (Weapons that feature two or more damage dice are considered too bulky, unbalanced, or un-wieldly for a Speed Attack.)





SPEED ATTACK:

When a "1" is rolled for damage after a successful hit with a Speed Weapon, the character is allowed to make a Speed Attack. This attack is a Free Action that must be made against against the same target using the same weapon and the same modifiers. It is a quick, double jab of the weapon. Resolve the Speed Attack as a normal attack using the same damage modifiers as the original attack.
 
I like the concepts:
- the jab attack, but should it only be on a rolled "1," after all a jab is intentional action, whereas a "rolled 1" is more of a fumble type thing, IMHO. On the other hand, I'm not sure how'd you work it...
-The spear (and the sling, see my post about the efficacy and deathdealing of slings) has always been given a bum deal in rpgs, the reason still eludes me, but I guess it is much more heroic to have a shiny longsword than a 7 foot long barb of death and mayhem.
 
The "1" is just a trigger. I don't want it to be a "fussy" rule. I don't want to think about it at all, but once I see the "1" on the damage dice, it will make me slap my head and say, "Oh yeah! The character gets another attack!"

I'd prefer the "trigger" to be on the attack throw, but I don't know how to easily implement it. The natural 1, 20, and the tie between attack and defense are already taken.

If you've got a thought on that, I'd like to hear it.
 
Let's talk about another way (possibly a better way?) to incorporate weapon speed into your d20 game (be it Conan, D&D, or some other version).



Before I lay the new idea on you, let's review the inspiration for this rule. In 1E AD&D, weapon speed was handled thusly...



1. A d6 was thrown for each combatant. This was called "initiative", though the throw was implemented differently than what we do today with an "initiative" throw, and there were no die modifiers on that throw. It was a straight, opposed d6 throw. The higher of the opposed roll indicated who was allowed to strike first in the round.



2. When a tie occured, the weapon with the lower Speed Factor attacked first. But there was more: (from pg. 66 of the 1E AD&D DMG) "This number (referring to weapon's Speed Factor) is indicative of the wieldiness of any particular weapon, how long it takes to ready the weapon against an opponent, or how long to recover and move it in its attack mode." When the tie occured, weapon speed factors were compared. If a weapon's speed factor was at least twice that of a smaller weapon, the smaller weapon was given 2 attacks during the round (one extra attack). If the difference between the two factors was 10 or more, then the smaller weapon was given 3 attacks during the round (two extra attacks).











I've thought up a similar method to bring weapon speed to a d20 game. I'll tell you how it works. You tell me what you think. Maybe we can make some adjustments to it, if needed.







WEAPON SPEED


1. On the attack roll, there is a single number on the die that, if rolled, indicates an extra speed attack. That number is one digit less than the weapon's Critical Threat number(s). Thus, if a weapon scores a critical threat on a 19 or 20, it's speed attack number will be 18.

This is akin to the tie on the d6 throw* in the 1E AD&D rules.



2. The Speed Number is always thrown on the attack of the smaller weapon (see the Size Categories below). There is no Speed Number on the attack throw for a weapon that is of bigger size or the same size as that of the opponent's weapon.



SIZE CATEGORIES

Light
One-Handed
Two-Handed



3. When the speed attack number is thrown, and the attack is a success, the weapon size categories are compared. A smaller weapon is given an extra attack for every size category is it removed from the larger weapon.

This is akin to the Speed Factor comparison in the 1E AD&D rules.












EXAMPLE 1

Vladir the Vanir warrior fights with a two-handed greatsword. Cael the Cimmerian fights with a dagger.

The dagger scores a critical thread on 19-20, so it's Speed Number is 18.

On the Cimmerian's turn, his dagger attack throw results in a natural 18. This means that we compare the size of the dagger to the size of the great sword. The great sword is two categories higher than the dagger, so the Cimmerian is given two extra attacks that round with the dagger.



EXAMPLE 2

Rodus, the Aquilonian, fights Pri the Pict. Rodus uses a broadsword and Pri uses a club.

Speed Attacks are not possible with this example because both weapons are in the same size category--they're both in the one-handed weapon category.



EXAMPLE 3

Taurus, the Brythunian thief, uses a stiletto in a combat against a member of the town guard. The guardsman uses a scimtar.

Since the short stiletto throws a Critical Thread on a natural roll of 20, it's speed number is 19.

If Taurus throws a natural 19 on his attack throw and is successful hitting the guard, he will get one additonal speed attack (because the stiletto is a light weapon, and the scimtar is one size category larger as a one-handed weapon).







I think this is easy-cheesy and even a bit more intuitive than my original rule (that I posted at the start of this thread). I also think this rule is more like the original 1E AD&D rule that inspired it.



*One thing to know is that the Speed Number will come up slighty more often. It's a 5% proposition to throw a single number on a d20 where as it is a 2.7% chanc to throw matching numbers on two single d6 throws. But, at the same time, the size categories are broader with the d20 game when compared to a weapon's speed factor from 1E AD&D.

For example, in 1E AD&D, a Hand Axe has Speed Factor 4, while a Dagger has Speed Factor 2. Under the 1E AD&D rule, the Dagger could get an extra speed attack against the Hand Axe.

In the d20 game, both weapons are classified as Light weapons, and thus neither would gain an extra Speed Attack against the other.

So...eventhough the check to see if a Speed Attack is possible occurs twice as much with this rule vs. the 1E AD&D rule (5% vs. 2.7%), the actual Speed Attacks will happen less often because of the broad size categories.





Folks, I think this is a better rule than the original one we've been discussing.

Thoughts? Comments?
 
Just a comment: I thought the ADD nish was determined by the d5, like you stated, but everyone added their weapon speed factor and that would be the final # that determined Nish, so the lower the roll the better and even better if you had a dagger, which had a SF of 1, and then even better if you had a high DEX which meant that you could subtract even more off.

So ideally, roll a 1, have scimitar with a SF of 5 (I think)= 6, then subtract your DEX (if you had 18, your nish subtraction was also "-4" like your AC reduction) so your grand total would be a "2"

Hopefully I got it right, as kids we never did that, but I think that's how it worked.

Which made sense because a dagger with a SF of 1 should still be faster than a two Handed sword (sf10) even if the nish rolls were 6 and 1, respectively.
 
Spectator said:
Just a comment: I thought the ADD nish was determined by the d5, like you stated, but everyone added their weapon speed factor and that would be the final # that determined Nish, so the lower the roll the better and even better if you had a dagger, which had a SF of 1, and then even better if you had a high DEX which meant that you could subtract even more off.

You're thinking 2E AD&D. Nish was 1d10 + Weapon Speed Factor. DEX was not used to modify nish.

In 1E AD&D, it's as I state (see pg. 66 of the 1E AD&D DMG), but on the first round, nish isn't thrown. The character with the longer weapon automatically gets to attack first, and then nish is thrown on round 2 and all later rounds.
 
Third idea....and I think this is best so far....





About the second idea...

I think I dig the second rule better. I think it will "play" better.

I do miss what Jimlock is saying, though. He's basically saying that it's "cool" that an punch get a Speed Attack more often than a dagger, and a dagger will get a Speed Attack more often than a short sword. But, with my new rule, they're all three light weapons and will get the same number of Speed Attacks.

I was thinking of calling the new rule: "A Fifteen". We've got "Taking Twenty" and "Taken Ten" and a "Critical Threat" and a "Critical Hit".

A Fifteen would be a speed attack (if I go with the option to have a natural "15" on the dice indicating a speed attack).







Here's an idea. Let me see what you think of this.

We'll make the Speed Attack roll akin to a Critical Hit throw.

How do we make Critical Hit throws? We roll a Critical Threat, then we make a check to see the Critical Hit occurs. Right?

How about a new thought....







WEAPON SPEED IDEA #3

What if we combined ideas from the first two Weapon Speed ideas I've had.

Consider this: A natural "15" on the attack throw indicates a Speed Attack may occur. With the second idea, this is where we compared size categories to see if a speed attack happens.

Instead of doing the comparison, let's just look at the damage on that first attack. If it's the highest amount of damage possible on the damage die throw, then a second speed attack is allowed.

That second part serves the same function as the Critical Hit check after a Critical Threat is rolled.

Neat idea?







EXAMPLE 1

Bedro the Zingaran is fighting with a stiletto. That weapon, like a dagger, does 1d4 damage.

On Bedro's attack throw, he d20 shows a natural 15. A speed attack is possible.

Speed Attacks aren't possible unless the first attack hits. So, if a combatant can't hit a target with a 15+ throw, then no Speed Attacks are possible against that foe. The foe is too armored or too quick or just too good for Bedro to get in a quick second jab.

Bedro needs a 17 to hit, but with his natural 15 on his d20 roll, plus his STR modifier, he rolls a total of 18.

This means that a Speed Attack is possible.

Bedro rolls damage. The d4 shows a "4" on the damage die. That's our Speed check. Bedro does get another Speed attack.

So, we go right into the second attack.





This is an exploding die situation, so if Bedro rolls exactly 15 on a the Speed Attack, then rolls a 4 on his d4 damage die, he'll get a third attack, and so on.



Note that with this third idea for weapon speed, we're back to the first idea of having "Speed Weapons" (like "Reach" weapons, or "Finesse" weapons in the Conan game).



Which weapons are elligible? Any that the GM thinks shold be elligible.



I think most one-handed weapons for which the character has proficiency (disallow the whip and maybe a few other weapons) and two-handed piercing weapons.



Your GM may reason different weapons for different reasons.





OK, folks, what do you think of that idea?

I actually like it the best out of the three ideas, as it seems to incorporate the best of both ideas.

Comments?
 
I like your ideas but I have to think about it.
Off course we are thinking in terms of "weapon groups" (e.g. light, one-handed, etc.) and not of single weapon (in which case you should adapt the Codex).

I'm not so sure about the "15".
If I'm wielding one of those rare weapons whose critical are in the range of 18-20 (e.g. two light weapons as the Jambiya or the Flame Knife in Tito's) AND the Improved Critical Feat, the natural "15" is Critical Threat, not Speed Attack.

I prefered the rule where the speed Threat is given by 1 number less than the critical threat.
 
LucaCherstich said:
I like your ideas but I have to think about it.

All of these ideas are still in the "brainstorm" stage. I'm just posting them for comments. They're not finished rules.

And, the discussion hasn't really taken off here, but it has over at THIS SITE

Lots more ideas and discussion about it there.
 
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