[Conan] The Parry / Dodge defense conundrum

[Dwarin]

I'm aware that this was already discussed several times before. I am a lurker on this forum since there was a Conan forum. I also know that there's a slight inbalance between the attack and defense values in that the Dodge/Parry base value progression does not match the Attack value progression.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that a Barbarian and a Soldier are trading blows.

Barbarian Attack +20 +3 STR bonus (let's assume the player is pumping his STR to be a good fighter) = +23. He attacks a Soldier.

Soldier Parry Value 10 +15 base value from class +4 DEX bonus (let's assume he has a good DEX) = 29

This means he just has to roll a 6 on the d20 to hit. Now granted, the die won't come up as 6+ every time, but more often it will. And this gets worse with those classes whose defences are much lower. Please correct my math if I'm wrong.

It seems to be this tends to wield some pretty boring combats where the attackers already know they will strike most of the time. I'm leaving out other elements which could influence the outcome. As far as I can tell, this problem only crops up on the higher levels (level 10 or higher). Were there any house rules trying to patch this up?

 

[Supplement Four]

Barbarian Attack +20 +3 STR bonus (let's assume the player is pumping his STR to be a good fighter) = +23. He attacks a Soldier.

Soldier Parry Value 10 +15 base value from class +4 DEX bonus (let's assume he has a good DEX) = 29

To Parry, Soldier would use his STR, not his DEX.



Also, you're talking about 20th level characters here. That's not the norm. The game "lives" in the level 1-10 range. Look at pg. 11-12 of the 2E Core rule book and see how rare it is to encounter a even a 12th level character.

Think of 99% of the people living in the world to be of level 1-10, with the other 1% all fitting in the level 11-20 range.



And...don't forget that just because a character is hit doesn't mean he takes damage. A 20th level Soldier probably has some decent armor that will soak up some damage.

 

[Nyarly]

When I first got the game I also had the opinion that the level-based defense bonuses are too low. Bumping them up to 1 / 0,75 / 0,5 would be a suitable house rule.

We haven't done that in our games though. Armor does help to lessen the blows, although average damage is considerably higher than damage reduction from armor.

The system is meant to be deadly and gritty. Fights are much more dangerous than in D&D, also because there is no real magical healing.

I still think that the massive damage threshold is much too low.

My main character in Conan D20 is a brythuninan Thief 3 / Temptress 3 / Barbarian 1 / Martial Disciple 1 who usually wears little to no armor. She tumbles to avoid attacks of opportunity, always fights defensively and / or uses Combat Expertise to boost her dodge defense up into the high 20s range. At 20th level she would have a dodge defense of 35 which she can raise to 46 when fighting defensively with full Combat Expertise. Since she has Improved Feint and later Greater Feint, she'll still hit her enemies reliably and do good damage with sneak attack dice.

It is not easy, but you can make a character that's pretty hard to hit in Conan D20, even with the low class defense bonuses.

Edit: Btw, we use the fractional BAB and Saving Throws rules (from D&D's Unearthed Arcana) and expanded them to also include fractional Defense Bonus calculation for Conan D20.

 

[Mach5RR]

Don't forget, your barbarian is going to suffer a 5 point bump going into his multiple attacks. So he will be +23/+18/+13/+8. The soldier (who we assume has a +4 STR bonus) will retain his 29 parry value through every attack. Also, don't forget that parry can be easily boosted with the addition of a shield (a large shield will add +4 to parry) making it almost a 50/50 shot on the first attack, 25% on the second, and a natural 20 for the third and fourth. And if the soldiers charisma is high enough, you can factor in the feats parry (+1 to parry) and intricate swordplay (+ CHA bonus to parry).

The upsetting thing is, the only feat I see giving a dodge bonus, is the Dodge feat (+1 bonus).

 

[Dwarin]

To Parry, Soldier would use his STR, not his DEX.

I stand correct. Just replace DEX with STR and my point still stand (but see below).

I completely forgot about Combat Expertise. That sure helps boost the defences. My point is not so valid now.

The only thing I tend to frown upon but not disagree is the "characters are mostly in the 1-10 range" not because it's silly (I heartily agree it's a nice range and keeps things more realistic, for lack of a better word) but because the rules include levels 11-20, so at some point someone wants to go into that range even though most of us won't. Therefore, the rules should be able to support that.

This being said, I agree that the rules work better in the 1-10 range. We shouldn't see many NPCs in the high 10s. The book also seems to support this in the gazetteer.

 

[Supplement Four]

The only thing I tend to frown upon but not disagree is the "characters are mostly in the 1-10 range" not because it's silly (I heartily agree it's a nice range and keeps things more realistic, for lack of a better word) but because the rules include levels 11-20, so at some point someone wants to go into that range even though most of us won't. Therefore, the rules should be able to support that.

I look at the 11-20 range just as the book describes--this is reserved for your legendary figures. Your PCs are heroes and will probably become legendary figures--the 11-20 range gives them a place to go.

Many kings, warlords, and champion warriors will be in the 11-20 range. If you're Joe, the Captain of the Guard, you might be 8th level. But, if you're Lancelot or Achilles, you're in the 11-20 range.

If you're Thulsa Doom, you're in the 11-20 range.

If you're Thoth-Amon, you're definitely a level 20 character.

If you're Conan by the time he is King of Aquilonia, you're a 20th level character.

If you're Natohk, the favorite of Set, you're in the 11-20 range.

Plus, the 11-20 range gives you a place to put the "supernatural", too. If your'e some demon-thing, you're in the 11-20 range.

This being said, I agree that the rules work better in the 1-10 range. We shouldn't see many NPCs in the high 10s. The book also seems to support this in the gazetteer.

All the books support this. Most of the clan chieftains in the Cimmeria book average about 8th level. Most of the published adventures are designed for characters 10th level and below.