Conan & the 5' step

[VincentDarlage]

It does not make much of a difference in withdrawing; remember, withdrawing from combat is still a fullround action. I dont think anyone used the 5'step to withdraw from combat, since it was useless.

If you have a reach weapon, you might 5' step backward after they stepped in for their attack. Now, when they 5' step within reach, you get to whack them. And if you step back to use your reach, they can whack you. It's a good change to the rules.

 

[Yuan-Ti]

What about free actions?

 

[Yuan-Ti]

What does it say in the "Full Attack Action" section?
If that action includes a free 5-foot step. And the action itself doesn't provoce an AoO...
...what then?
What I'm after is that sometimes the 5-foot step is included in another action and not an action in and of itself.
Have to check this when I get home...
/wolf

Maybe you checked this already but... all it says under Full Attack is that you may also take a 5 foot step before or after your Full Attack. Of course, while it does not say so here, it only makes sense that the same rules apply to this 5' foot step as to others and it would draw an AOO if you combined it with a Full Attack.

 

[argo]

Been thinking about this one for a while now and I gotta say, the issue is not at all clear-cut.

So allowing AoO's on 5' step makes the game more deadly. Ok, but the lethality in Conan is already prety high as is. So allowing AoO's on a 5' step makes it harder on archers and casters in close combat. Ok, but even in regular DnD the tactic of step back 5' and cast a spell is just delaying the inevitable, in Conan it is downright suicidal. Unless you have a spell that will drop the fighter in one shot (in which case you just cast defensievly) you'd be better off withdrawing and hoping one of your meatshields covers you. So allowing AoO's on a 5' step prevents people from steping back and doing something else that provokes an AoO, like drink a potion. Ok, but there aren't any potions in Conan so what does that leave: load a x-bow, pick up an item, sheathe a weapon? I'm not too woried there.

No, IME the 5' step is most often used by the melee jugernauts who employ it tactically over several rounds to flank an opponent or box him in. One could counter by saying that it is right that a melee jugernaut (who probably has a prety good DR) should have to take extra attacks, they have plenty of soak already and that is just the price they have to pay. But Conan already does a lot to promote the idea that you should stay as mobile as possible in combat: everybody can Fight on the Run, the Fleet-Footed feat is easy to get, PA works best with single hits, and standing still in melee is just generally hazerdous to your health. The power attacking, charging, fleet footed Barbarian who runs by you cutting off the heads of your closest friends is damn dangerous already. Do we really need to hamper those who want to risk going toe to toe for a full round?

I don't think that this is a balance issue. I think that in the end this is a flavor issue. I am not going to use this because I feel that it will have a chilling effect on the ability to go "heavy" for full-round combat.

That is me, you are you. YMMV

 

[Anonymous]

Look, everyone is making a mountain of a molehill. DOes nayone even bother with this? All mages, in dnd or this, if casting in melee cast defensively. Heck, in conan d20 so many spells have a range of touch, you HAVE to be in melee. No one bothers to take a 5' step back (at least not in games I have been in), since casting a spell in dnd always provokes an AoO whilst in melee, 5' step or no.

IMO I personally will rule that taking a full round action means no AoO's on the 5' step; otherwise its just ridiculous. It'll only end up with having to roll more dice.

No one uses the 5' rule to withdraw, since its not really possible. ANy char they are withdrawing for can also move 5' as a free action, so its just pointless.

Just play combat how you enjoy it most.

 

[S'mon]

I've been thinking about the Conan rule & the default D&D rules. D&D 5' step is too lenient on archers, Conan 5' step is arguably too harsh on melee types. I'm thinking of using the following rule:

I suggest the following, to deal with the plausibility problem ( I find) of
archers in melee who can 5' step away from the swordsman attacking them
and get a full round's worth of shots into his face, with no AoO. I think
archers in melee should be expected to resort to melee weapons, not fight
with bows gun-fu style!


5' Step Ready Rule:


1. You can Ready a 5' step on your turn as a Free Action, provided you
have not otherwise moved on your turn. So you could full attack and ready
a 5' step.


2. If you have moved on your turn, you can still Ready a 5' step as a Move-
Equivalent (not Standard) action. So you could 5' step, standard-attack, and
Ready another 5' step.


Thoughts?

 

[Yuan-Ti]

Good thoughts, S'mon.

My other idea was to make it more like wargames (bear with me!) by saying 5' step only provokes AOOs if you move from a threatened square into another threatened square.

This means you can take a 5' step into combat or 5' step out of combat but you cannot use it as my players often do -- to move diagonally between two enemies in order to flank one or both of them. Of course they could still tumble into that position, but now they have to make a tumble check (admittedly, an easy one). Of course, you cannot tumble AND make a Full Attack.

 

[S'mon]

Good thoughts, S'mon.

My other idea was to make it more like wargames (bear with me!) by saying 5' step only provokes AOOs if you move from a threatened square into another threatened square.

This means you can take a 5' step into combat or 5' step out of combat but you cannot use it as my players often do -- to move diagonally between two enemies in order to flank one or both of them. Of course they could still tumble into that position, but now they have to make a tumble check (admittedly, an easy one). Of course, you cannot tumble AND make a Full Attack.

Since that makes you Flanked too, I don't see a problem with it not provoking AoO, it has its own penalty. My big problem is with archers who keep 5' stepping back and full-attacking. My annoyed NPCs tend to end up Sundering their bows to stop it! :twisted:

 

[GhostWolf69]

1. You can Ready a 5' step on your turn as a Free Action, provided you
have not otherwise moved on your turn. So you could full attack and ready
a 5' step.

2. If you have moved on your turn, you can still Ready a 5' step as a Move-
Equivalent (not Standard) action. So you could 5' step, standard-attack, and
Ready another 5' step.


Thoughts?

Well... I can see your point. But I would not allow for a "move action" and a "move equivalent action" during the same round. Since the later is what you do INSTEAD of the former. Also if I read you correctly... all this does is prevent the "gun-fu" archer from steping back and fiering the very first round. Cause if he/she stays his ground the first round and readies an action, he can step back, fire and ready another the round after that and the whole thing starts over.

And you still didn't comment on the AoO's...

Please correct me if I'm wrong here. I might not be getting it right. I'm tired...

/wolf

 

[S'mon]

1. You can Ready a 5' step on your turn as a Free Action, provided you
have not otherwise moved on your turn. So you could full attack and ready
a 5' step.

2. If you have moved on your turn, you can still Ready a 5' step as a Move-
Equivalent (not Standard) action. So you could 5' step, standard-attack, and
Ready another 5' step.


Thoughts?

Well... I can see your point. But I would not allow for a "move action" and a "move equivalent action" during the same round. Since the later is what you do INSTEAD of the former. Also if I read you correctly... all this does is prevent the "gun-fu" archer from steping back and fiering the very first round. Cause if he/she stays his ground the first round and readies an action, he can step back, fire and ready another the round after that and the whole thing starts over.

And you still didn't comment on the AoO's...

Please correct me if I'm wrong here. I might not be getting it right. I'm tired...

/wolf

It's not a 'move action' as such - it's _any movement_, ie could be a 5' step which is a free action. It does let you move twice in your round, of course - but you can already do that with Readied actions, you can Move and then Ready a second Move.

I see your point I think with the archer - he could 5' step back, fire (as a standard action), and then ready another 5' step... however the swordsman would have 5' stepped forward _when the archer stepped back_ which means the archer would still get the AoO on him.

Still, I think you have a good point. I might get rid of (2) and just keep (1), so characters could only move once on their turn and not 5' step twice in a round.

Thanks for the feedback Ghost - very helpful.

 

[El Cid]

I recall a feat that allows the defender to "PRESS" if an opponent like an archer takes a 5 foot step back. The defender moves into the vacated space.

I don't recall the name of the feat or which book I saw it in.

Sidney

 

[S'mon]

I recall a feat that allows the defender to "PRESS" if an opponent like an archer takes a 5 foot step back. The defender moves into the vacated space.

I don't recall the name of the feat or which book I saw it in.

Sidney

We're discussing this & related matters here:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=85610

- Looks like that step-up-5' "Press Attack" feat is from Dragonstar.

 

[Yuan-Ti]

Since that makes you Flanked too, I don't see a problem with it not provoking AoO, it has its own penalty.

Huh? I don't understand this... My idea was that if you move from a threatened space to another threatened space this provokes an AOO -- but you would not necessarily be flanked in that situation.

My big problem is with archers who keep 5' stepping back and full-attacking. My annoyed NPCs tend to end up Sundering their bows to stop it! :twisted:

Yeah... I don't have a huge problem with that. The attacker can still step up and get his full attack the next round. Eat that, archerboy! I suppose in an ideal world, d20 rules would reflect that the 5' step makes some sense for melee but not much sense for archery. The idea that an archer can move five feet and still fire off two arrows (with the right feats) every 6 seconds just as accurately as he can standing still... well, it's ludicrous!

IMHO

 

[S'mon]

Since that makes you Flanked too, I don't see a problem with it not provoking AoO, it has its own penalty.

Huh? I don't understand this... My idea was that if you move from a threatened space to another threatened space this provokes an AOO -- but you would not necessarily be flanked in that situation.

My big problem is with archers who keep 5' stepping back and full-attacking. My annoyed NPCs tend to end up Sundering their bows to stop it! :twisted:

Yeah... I don't have a huge problem with that. The attacker can still step up and get his full attack the next round. Eat that, archerboy! I suppose in an ideal world, d20 rules would reflect that the 5' step makes some sense for melee but not much sense for archery. The idea that an archer can move five feet and still fire off two arrows (with the right feats) every 6 seconds just as accurately as he can standing still... well, it's ludicrous!

IMHO

At high level it's more like 5-6 arrows...

My point was that stepping between 2 opponents 'to flank them both' also makes you flanked!

 

[spydacarnage]

How about this for a solution...

A 5-foot step does not provoke an attack of opportunity, unless it is combined with an action which does.

Therefore, your fighter can still use it to jockey for position safely, but as soon as the archer steps back to let forth a volley of arrows, he gets a sword in his gut..

 

[GhostWolf69]

How about this for a solution...

A 5-foot step does not provoke an attack of opportunity, unless it is combined with an action which does.

Therefore, your fighter can still use it to jockey for position safely, but as soon as the archer steps back to let forth a volley of arrows, he gets a sword in his gut..

Actually this is just about the best bloody idea I've seen so far!!!

*smacks forehead* Now why didn't I think of that?

Makes maneuvering while in "Full attack mode" ok.
But stops the "Gun-Fu" bow man and the sidestepping spell-slinger!

Brilliant! Thank you!

/wolf

 

[spydacarnage]

No problem.

Now all we need to do is see if M-Bob likes the idea...

 

[wyerdo]

A 5-foot step does not provoke an attack of opportunity, unless it is combined with an action which does.

Great idea! I wish I had thought of it.

 

[Yuan-Ti]

How about this for a solution...

A 5-foot step does not provoke an attack of opportunity, unless it is combined with an action which does.

Therefore, your fighter can still use it to jockey for position safely, but as soon as the archer steps back to let forth a volley of arrows, he gets a sword in his gut..

Yeah, but I don't want my fighter to be able to do that. My players are always stepping diagonally past two enemies in order to help flank both of them.

Enemy = :evil:
PC thief = 8)
vacated space = :arrow:

So, beginning of Thief's turn.

:evil:
8) :evil:

Then Thief takes 5' step.

:evil: 8)
:arrow: :evil:


I hate that!

I also hate this one. Empty space = :?:

:evil: 8) :?: :evil:
:evil: :arrow: 8) :evil:

Boo! Hiss!

 

[Arkobla Conn]

How about this for a solution...

A 5-foot step does not provoke an attack of opportunity, unless it is combined with an action which does.

Therefore, your fighter can still use it to jockey for position safely, but as soon as the archer steps back to let forth a volley of arrows, he gets a sword in his gut..

Yeah, but I don't want my fighter to be able to do that. My players are always stepping diagonally past two enemies in order to help flank both of them.

Enemy = :evil:
PC thief = 8)
vacated space = :arrow:

So, beginning of Thief's turn.

:evil:
8) :evil:

Then Thief takes 5' step.

:evil: 8)
:arrow: :evil:


I hate that!

I also hate this one. Empty space = :?:

:evil: 8) :?: :evil:
:evil: :arrow: 8) :evil:

Boo! Hiss!

I think the first example is valid. You should be able to swing around by taking that 5' step and stay engaged with both without getting an AoO. The second example, however, should be right out. You are effectively leaving one melee to join another. There is an AoO there for sure.