[CONAN] Question about being Flat-Footed

I picked up a new player who has clocked in a lot of time playing D&D but not Conan, and this guy insists that I'm playing the Flat-Footed rule wrong.

The way I read it, when a combat round starts, everybody rolls initiative. Characters move and act in inititiave order. On the first round, a character is considered flat-footed until his chance to act.

So...

If Caelis rolls a 15 Inititiative, and Thrallan rolls an 11, Caelis can walk up to Thrallan, attack him, and Thrallan will be considered flat-footed.

Thrallan is no longer flat-footed once the initiative count reaches him.

It seems pretty black and white to me. Is this how you see it?
 
That is how I've always done it. Both Conan and 3.5 D&D do it the same.

I can't see how the book can be read any other way. It specifically says, at the beginning of battle, before you have a chance to act, you are considered flat footed.

What does your player think you are doing wrong?
 
Jeraa said:
What does your player think you are doing wrong?

He thinks the rule is overpowered. His argument is this: If Caelis and Thrallan are shouting at each other, and the situation goes to blows, then we roll iniative and start the fight...BUT, he says, neither Caelis or Thrallan should be flatfooted because both were expecting to enter the fight.

He asks, "Why would one have such an advantage over the other for only the first punch?"



Now, he's got one of my other players thiking along with him.
 
If both are aware, that just means there is no surprise round.

Basically, flat footed represents this:
Everyone knows there is going to be a fight. Both sides are watching each other, not knowing when the fight will actually begin. One person suddenly acts, catching the other off guard for a split second. For that split second, the attacker has caught his opponent off guard (i.e., flat footed). Then, the other guy goes. Now that both sides are fully aware that the fight has actually begun, neither is flat footed (they have both acted, and the first round is over)

Yes, both are expecting to enter the fight, but neither one knows exactly when it will start. Thats what being caught flat footed means. Its not like they are both yelling, then decide to start the real fight on the count of 3. What would happen is both would be yelling at each other, until one decides to act.

I'm sure you've seen fights (say, on a cop show or something) where 2 guys are arguing. Then one his the other, and it takes a half a second for that second guy to realize just what happened before he actually starts fighting back.
 
Nialldubh -

2) No, combat doesn't begin at the first shout. Not unless you we're tracking each move action, standard action, etc since they first began. Initiative is rolled and combat begins when someone actually decides to act (by attacking.)

4: Two Men 15ft apart, one with Long Spear and other with Dagger, both know other would wish to cut his throat and let him bleed his life away, but none have attack, rule should state that both Men are really for a fight (but it not), but one with true advantage would be spearman as he can get an Attack of Opportunity on other, no matter who win Initiative, but by most people interpretation of rules, only fight start with Physical contact, ie if Dagger-Man win Initiative he can run it and stab other before he can react!
The dagger man can run in and stab someone with a longspear before the other guy can act. I've seen it done in countless movies and SCA/medieval reenactment fights.

5: Okay, here is last statement, look at page 176 on Initiative, it states "At the start of a Battle," well this is it, my idea of a Battle is two forces closing in on each other, shouting their war-cries, threats and abuse and then charging, both side are in Battle at 1st shout! So it just each person interpretation on when a Battle starts, not how the Rule states it!

Battle doesn't start until someone physically (or magically) attacks. Shouting is not combat. Hell, if shouting was considered combat, then normal talking should be too. No difference. You can be talking normally with someone then suddenly stab/shoot them. (Or have you never seen that happen in a movie either?)
 
First of all - proper English. Learn it please. Second, anyone can say "I've done this" or "I've done that". You saying it isn't going to make me believe.

Third - yeah, I referenced films and books. But that is exactly what the game is trying to duplicate. Not real life. I never claimed to be an expert on real life combat. But that is fine, because the game isn't trying to model real life combat. Its modelling fictional, movie and book style combat.

one will not graciously stand there like a idiot and go "oh, never saw that coming,"
In real life, no. But in the game, yes. One will stand there while the other swings his weapon at him (usually several times). Thats a problem of the turn-based combat. One guy goes and performs his entire move and attack routine before the other guy. Doen't make sense, but thems the rules.

As for your "training"? Meaningless, unless you opponents were actually trying to kill you. Which I highly, highly doubt.

Also, any "trained warrior" would be taught techniques to get past the tip of a weapon such as the long spear. Once you get by it, the spearman can't stab you with it. There is a reason most sane people didn't use such a long weapon in one on one fights. Once your opponent got past the tip, it was near useless. Now, shorter spears are another matter. But then, your daggerman is already withing reach for a strike.

And another thing, why longspear against dagger? Daggers aren't primary weapons. They are back ups, in case your real weapon is unavailable.
 
Here's my response to my troubled player:

Remember that being Flat-Footed at the beginning of a combat round is about how quick a character moves and reacts to a situation. It's based on DEX. It doesn't have anything to do with awareness of enemies (which would base it on WIS or INT). That would be Surprise. One rule I read said that Surprised characters are flat-footed because they haven't acted yet in a round, not because they are surprised.

What I want to bring to your attention is the Feint Combat maneuver.

Now, this is something that can be done on a character's action, during a fight.

So, let's say Caelis and Thrallan are going at it, and on the third combat round, Thrallan decides to attempt a Feint. What he does is give up an attack (because he's acting like he'll attack in one direction, but pulls that attack in order to fake out his enemy). You don't get an extra attack to pull off this maneuver, so it takes two attacks to do it--the first is your feint and the second is your real attack.

Mechanically, Thrallan rolls his Bluff skill instead of his usual attack when he feints. Caelis gets a free action to fall for it or not by rolling his Sense Motive skill. If Caels wins, Thrallan's feint fails, and combat goes on as normal. The net result is that Thrallan gave up an attack to try.

But, if Thrallan wins the Bluff vs. Sense Motive toss, Thrallan successfully confuses Caelis with his thrust, then comes in from another direction. If Thrallan's feint succeeds, Caelis is considered flat-footed (can't dodge or parry Thrallan's next attack) until just before his next turn on the next round. Thus, Thrallan feints in round 3 and then attacks flat-footed Caelis on round 4.

Now, logically, if a character can be considered flat-footed that quickly, right in the middle of a combat, is it a stretch to consider that a character can be considered flat-footed, the victim of the first blow from his enemy?



What happened with the feint? Thrallan faked a jab to the right, then pulled his swing. Caelis fell for the ruse, adjusted his stance to defend the blow coming in from the right, when Thrallan quickly shifted and struck into Caelis' exposed left--all in a matter of seconds.

If getting the first attack in is an advantage (and I know it is because, in the few fights I've been in during my life, I've been punched in the nose before I could strike, my eyes watered, and my opponent remained at an advanted during the entire fight), as I think all three of us will agree, I don't see it as too far a stretch to say that being flat-footed because your enemy struck first is akin to being victim of a feint.


Your opponent struck fast, and even though you were quite aware and ready to defend yourself, your opponent got in the first blow and took the advantage.

If you survive that first blow, your opponent's advantage is not as strong (you are no longer flat-footed), and the fight ensues.

But, as it says in the game, "striking first can mean the difference between life and death," the game designers chose to implement that first strike advantage with the flat-footed rule.

No game is perfect, but I think if you really consider what is being described here, you might find the flat-footed rule a bit easier to swallow.
 
Oh...this discussion reminds me of a little ditty I wrote a while back to the tune of Foreigner's "Hot Blooded"...

Well, I'm Flatfooted, check it and see
I rolled an initiative of only a three
Come on. Maybe! Ah, can't I roll better than that?
I'm flatfooted, I'm FLATFOOTED!

You don't have to read my mind, to know what I want my eyes to find
A twenty-sider, and I let it go
Now it was moving so fine, until it stopped on a dime
I don't wanna know what what I'd get if I made another throw

Now it's up to you, a d20 with its number high
Just me and you, with that d20 I'll show you shakin' like you never knew

But, I'm flatfooted, check it and see
I rolled an initiative of only a three
Come on. Maybe! Ah, can't I roll better than that?
I'm flatfooted, I'm FLATFOOTED!

If it lands just right, my PC may live through the night
Shall I throw the dice and see?
The GM's got to give me a sign, will I die or be fine?
Please let me roll hot, mama, but it sure ain't turing out that way for me.

Is my guy tough enough? Do I need a bigger mod to call a bluff?
Is my thinking right? Did I save a Fate Point for the game tonight?

Yeah I'm flatfooted, check it and see
I rolled an initiative of only a three
Come on. Maybe! Ah, can't I roll better than that?
I'm flatfooted, I'm FLATFOOTED!

I'm flatfooted, FLATFOOTED!
 
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