[CONAN] Help with RAW. Hide - Move Silently - Listen - Spot

[Supplement Four]

Slowly, over this campaign, I am learning the 3.x d20 rules. Before Conan, I've never played a d20 game. I skipped the entire d20 era, playing games like D6 Star Wars (a fantastic 7 year campaign!) and Classic Traveller (a 5 year campaign!).

Help me get my head around the stealth skills in Conan and how to put them to use.

I'll give you a situation. You tell me how I should run this using RAW.



The PCs are moving cross country using the Overland (One Day) scale. The GM rolls a random encounter for a panther and decides it is stalking the party as they move along their route.

The Panther is a 3 HD creature with: Listen +6; Spot +6; Hide +8; Spot +6; and Move Silently +8. It's got the special abilities of low-light vision and scent. And, it has the Alertness and Track Feats.

Obviously, this is a stalking creature (even if we didn't know that from real life).

How does a GM go about fairly having this panther stalk the party but also giving the party a chance to catch sight of it.

The panther is considered a medium sized animal, thus there are no size modifiers between it and humans.




The first thing I question under this scenario is the -1 modifier to the Spot check for each 10 feet of distance. I know that I can easily see a man sized creature at quite a long distance if terrain doesn't get in the way. But, the rule makes it almost impossible at 200 feet or less.


How does the panther sneak up on the party using RAW rules?





EDIT: If I were running this situation today, I'd throw a terrain modifier in there. Hilly areas like Cimmeria, where sight lines are constantly changeing, would get a random bonus to the Spot throw to offset the distance penalty. Something like this would also work in a forested area where there are a lot of "thin" spots and sight lines constantly change. Out on a flat, open desert, I'd give a pretty good bonus--not random--to the Spot check.

But, this is just me talking. I didn't see anything in RAW about this. And, I'm interested in how this situation should be handled using only RAW.

 

[Spectator]

:?: RAW
Perfect example of how insidious the rules are in D20.
Here I go again with my 1st ed DnD rant (you knew it was coming).

You're the GM, that damn panther is going to be ambushing the party or it isn't.
I think your players will hit you in the head with the empty pizza box and mtn dew bottle if you start rolling a d20 for 10' increments for 200 feet (20 times) for 3 players' spot checks for a total of 60 dice rolls before they see any action.

Seriuosly, are you gonna roll the dice 60 times? I hope not. They will powercleave your noggin with a rulebook, or just walk out if you are unlucky.

Don't overdo this.

Here's how you do it:
Panther is placed by you on an overhanging branch above the trail.
The bright sun creates intense shadows under the tree's leaves breaking up the contour of the panther even more than usual. So well, give the PCs a -3 to spot. People think of things coming from the sides, front, or rear, not from above, usually.

PC's can make a wisdom check to think of potential ambush sites (When I walk in the woods, I make a mental note of things like that, yeah I'm weird). If they make the Wisdom check let them negate the -3 penalty (they still need to make the spot check though).

If one of three in the party (assuming they are walking closely together) makes the check, they see the panther, crisis averted with a good slingstone or javelin toss.
Or if they are single file, the panther, will drop on the last fellow in the party, and game on!!!

I might also give the PCs who are not walking "point" a neg spot mod, just because when you are not pointman, you are following and relying on your pointman. Walking point is strenous and taxing, which is why we would switch out pointman every hour or so when I was in the infantry.

 

[Supplement Four]

:?: RAW

Geekspeak for "Rules As Written"

Perfect example of how insidious the rules are in D20.
Here I go again with my 1st ed DnD rant (you knew it was coming).

Hey, I like 1E D&D.

I think your players will hit you in the head with the empty pizza box and mtn dew bottle if you start rolling a d20 for 10' increments for 200 feet (20 times) for 3 players' spot checks for a total of 60 dice rolls before they see any action.

Yes, that's crazy. I think I'd go insane rolling like that.

Which is why I'm curious as to what is meant by RAW.

 

[Supplement Four]

You only roll once.

Then how do you fairly decide when to roll?

As the panther gets closer, it gets easier for the PCs to notice him (due to the -1 modifier to Spot and Listen per 10 feet).

And, what if there are multiple areas of total concealment? For example, if there are three (only "3" to have a simple example--could be a lot more) thick clusters of bushes where the panther can hide, but open spaces between them, where does the GM draw the line and say, "Here is where the PCs have a chance to spot the panther."

And if the panther wins that toss, whereever the GM decides to make the call, does that mean that the panther can sneak all the way up to a PC and surprise attack?

For example, if the GM decides to make the single roll to see if the panther is heard or seen at 60 feet away, it's still going to take the panther four rounds to stalk a party member (moving at Speed 15 per round as to not take Hide penalties).

As the panther gets closer, it should be easier for a PC to detect it before it attacks. And, there should be a chance for the party to detect the panther at a distance, too.

So, how are you going to account for that with a single dice roll?

 

[Mach5RR]

You only roll once.

Then how do you fairly decide when to roll?

As the panther gets closer, it gets easier for the PCs to notice him (due to the -1 modifier to Spot and Listen per 10 feet).

And, what if there are multiple areas of total concealment? For example, if there are three (only "3" to have a simple example--could be a lot more) thick clusters of bushes where the panther can hide, but open spaces between them, where does the GM draw the line and say, "Here is where the PCs have a chance to spot the panther."

And if the panther wins that toss, whereever the GM decides to make the call, does that mean that the panther can sneak all the way up to a PC and surprise attack?

For example, if the GM decides to make the single roll to see if the panther is heard or seen at 60 feet away, it's still going to take the panther four rounds to stalk a party member (moving at Speed 15 per round as to not take Hide penalties).

As the panther gets closer, it should be easier for a PC to detect it before it attacks. And, there should be a chance for the party to detect the panther at a distance, too.

So, how are you going to account for that with a single dice roll?

Easy enough. You let the degree of success determine where the panther was spotted.

To make this work, your also going to want to determine a creatures pounce range. This is that point where an ambush predator feels it has surprise on its side, and can safely rush a creature abandoning stealth. This can vary by predator and terrain. Crafty thieves have a pounce range of Zero, as they never want to give up concealment when performing backstabs.

Next, make your spot check as if the creature was right upon the victim (-0 penalties). For every point our spotter makes over his target, add 10' to the range at which the panther/attacker was spotted. If this puts the spot outside pounce range, the victim can take the opportunity to defend himself. If it is within pounce range, he may have time to scream.

If you are feeling generous, you can allow multiple spot checks. Say, once every round, or during a movement leg when the stalker is moving from one form of concealment to another. Remember though, a good ambush predator will wait until its prey is focused elsewhere before breaking concealment to shift positions.

As the stalker flows from one spot to another, difficulties in spotting can vary due to concealment. If your calculations give you multiple spots where the stalker may have been observed, pick the further one out.

Keep dice rolling to a minimum. More dice rolling will always favor the spotter. If you make your target roll 20 dice to spot something, he's pretty much guaranteed a success.

Unless, the character states he is favoring one sense over another, tie Spot and Listen to the same die roll. Again, this merely adds more dice roll to the equation which will always favor the spotter.

 

[Spectator]

S4, gimme a break down of dice rolls when a standard panther is stalking in a dense pictish forest, 3 pictish barbarians (use the "pict on a warpath" template from the back of the book, so everyone is on the same ).
Assume that Panther notices its potential targets 100feet away.

Tell me the process for that Panther to move into an overhanging limb and be ready to pounce on the last fellow in the group (assume they are walking on a narrow forest path, single file, 10 feet apart.).

Combat detail is not necessary.

 

[Supplement Four]

S4, gimme a break down of dice rolls when a standard panther is stalking in a dense pictish forest, 3 pictish barbarians (use the "pict on a warpath" template from the back of the book, so everyone is on the same ).
Assume that Panther notices its potential targets 100feet away.

Tell me the process for that Panther to move into an overhanging limb and be ready to pounce on the last fellow in the group (assume they are walking on a narrow forest path, single file, 10 feet apart.).

Since you're a 1E player, I assume you're looking for the RAW method in the Conan RPG?





ENCOUNTER DISTANCE

OK, first off, we ask how far apart are the two parties at the start of the encounter. This can be accomplished in one of three ways, according to RAW.

Method One: The terrain random encounter distance rules in the Core rulebook and repeated in Fiercest. You described dense forest, so we could throw 2d6 x 10 feet.

Method Two: We could throw a Spot check for the Picts to determine how far away it is that they spot the panther. This could involve three separate rolls, one for each character, by the GM, behind the screen (because the GM doesn't want the players to know the outcome of their throws), or one throw for the group could be used, with different modifiers providing individual results. Since all three Picts have the same modifiers, all three rolls would be the same with the one-roll option.

Method Three: This is the one we'll go with. It's GM fiat. The GM simply determines encounter distance as you have above, at 100 feet.




HOW FAR DOES THE PANTHER GET?

I'm reading what you've said above to mean that the panther is aware of the party at 100', but the party is unaware of the panther.

So, how far does the panther get before one of the Picts notices him?

We could have skipped the step above and simply come to this step, basically using Method 2.

Again, we could throw three Spot checks vs. the panther's Hide check to determine distance.

We could also use just the best Spot score vs. panther's Hide check.

We could throw one time but add modifiers as if we'd thrown 3 times.

Or, we can do what I'm going to do in my game--that is, throw a Spot and Listen check for each PC at the beginning of the game session, in secret, and use that check for the entire game session, not changing it unless the player calls for a new throw.

The Picts each have Spot +1 and Listen -1. I throw six times, at the beginning of the game session, keeping the results secret:

Pict #1: Spot = 7, Listen = 5

Pict #2: Spot = 11, Listen = 1

Pict #3: Spot = 17, Listen = 9

As you can see, this can get quite sticky, rolling all of this each time a character can spot or hear something. Another option that I haven't mentioned is to Take 10 on the scores.

I've decided, as I described above, to roll only once for each character at the beginning of the game session, in secret, and use those throws for the entire game. The player, of course, can, at any time, call for a new roll. But, he'll never know the outcome of the throw.

It only takes one to spot the panther and alert the whole group, so it looks lke Pict #3, who I assume is last in line on the single file march you describe, is the DC at which I'll throw the panther's Hide. This Pict also ahs the best Listen throw, so I'll compare that, if the panther is not seen on the Spot.




The panther has Hide +8 and Move Silently +8. As you've determined, the panther has already spotted the PC Picts.

Now, I roll the panther's Hide vs. the best Spot result. Hide check vs. DC 17. Panther gets Hide 21.

I'll check Move Silently, too, just to give the PCs every out. Move Silently vs. DC 9. Panther gets Move Silently 23.

This means that the panther will completely take the party unaware. An ambush can be set up where the panther will get a Surprise round.

The Picts didn't hear or see the panther stalking them.

And since the GM knows that its about a 100' that the panther has to stalk over, he also knows that this will take the panther about 5 rounds (30 seconds) moving at half speed (20 foot per combat round).





That's pretty much how it works. As you can see, there can be a buttload of dice throwing, or the GM can use my, albeit not official, interpretation of RAW where only one throw is made.

 

[Spectator]

Wow, there is a whole bunch of dice tossing.

OK I never had a GM (that I know of) who did a single dice toss for the whole session. What happens if you roll a one? Will that dude's PC continually walk into walls, step into OBVIOUS traps, trip over his own feet, etc. for the entire session?
Yikes!!!!

PS thanks for illustrating how you pull that off.
I guess after reading that the last Pict will be toast.

 

[Supplement Four]

Wow, there is a whole bunch of dice tossing.

That's what I said. And, there's really no official example of how stealth is supposed to work in 3.5. I did read that they changed stealth from 3.0 to 3.5.

OK I never had a GM (that I know of) who did a single dice toss for the whole session. What happens if you roll a one? Will that dude's PC continually walk into walls, step into OBVIOUS traps, trip over his own feet, etc. for the entire session?
Yikes!!!!

That's the idea. You have bad days and good days.

If the player thinks he's missing things that he should have heard/seen, then all he has to do is call for a new roll, and I'll throw it. Otherwise, I'm just going to do it once and use that as his reactive senses.

Maybe when I get more comfortable with the game system I'll start rolling more often--maybe at the start of each encounter.