[CONAN] Dodge

[Supplement Four]

Let's discuss Dodge for a moment.

In the description of how a character should dodge, and when he is allowed to dodge, the rules say that at least one adjacent square be either empty or occupied by a friendly unit.

Questions--

1. Can a character move into that space when dodging? The way the rule is written, it would seem so--as if the character dodging has a choice of staying in his original square or moving to the adjacent one. How do you read the rule?

2. What about the Dance Aside maneuver? Is the only time a character can move into that space is by using that maneuver? Or does the Dance Aside give the character an additonal 5 feet move?

3. If the character does move into that space while dodging, does this serve as his 5 foot step for the round? Or, does the character get to move another 5 feet when its his turn to act?

 

[Nyarlathotep5150]

The way I read it, it doesn't let you move into the space (you need Dance aside for that). The need for an clear space is just a way to illustrate that you can't dodge if you're pinned down so bad that there's no room to move. Now, this isn't perfect, since squares are 5'X5', and that alot of space to maneuver in... but nothings perfect.
As far as number 3. my understanding (from D&D, though I'm not sure its spelled out on Conan) is that rounds are relative to the PC. That is, your round start when you get to act, and lasts until your turn comes up again (this is why you're flat footed until your first action). So, either way his 5' step would refresh on his turn, if you count dance aside as his allotted 5' step for the round, he would need to choose to hold his step for that purpose.

 

[Supplement Four]

This is how I think the rule is supposed to be (but I'd sure like some official input on this).

In order to Dodge, the dodging character must have at least one adjacent square empty or with a friendly unit in it. That much is said in the book.

A dodging character cannot move into another square while dodging unless he uses the Dance Aside maneuver (along with its requirements).

So, why does a character who does not qualify for the Dance Aside maneuver (let's say he has DEX 12) need at least one open or friendly occupied space adjacent to the space he currently occupies? Well, for meta-game reasons, it's a visual que to the players to show who can dodge and who cannot on the battleboard. For an in-game reason, it's about space needed to dodge, weapon length, and avoiding all blows. If a character is surrounded except for the square behind him, then we know in which direction he will dodge when he needs to.

The 5 Food Step says that it is only possible to take it if the character has not taken any movement in the round previously. Yet, the Dance Aside maneuver is an Instant Action (which makes it a Free Action).

Therefore, if a character uses the Dance Aside before his turn later in the round, he is not allowed to move. He cannot take the 5 foot step, and he cannot move farther. He already took his movement when doing the Dance Aside.

But...if the character goes first and moves, he can use the Dance Aside later in the round and move an additonal 5 feet.

That interpretation serves both rules.



Thus, a character with DEX 12, must have at least one open or friendly occupied adjacent space in order to be able to dodge. Otherwise, the character must use parry.

A character with DEX 13+ can use the Dance Aside maneuver to move into an adjacent 5 foot space provided the enemy's attack throw is less than or equal to half the defender's dodge score.



If a character moves at all early in the round, including the Dance Aside, the character is not allowed to take his 5 foot step (or any other movement) during his combat round.

But, if the same character is attacked later in the round, and Dance Aside is possible, then the character may move the extra 5 feet with the Dance Aside.

That's the way I'm reading the rules.

 

[Nyarlathotep5150]

If a character moves at all early in the round, including the Dance Aside, the character is not allowed to take his 5 foot step (or any other movement) during his combat round.

This doesn't make sense by the way D20 initiative works though. A combat round isn't based on Initiative count. The round starts on your characters turn and ends at the end of the turn of whoever goes just prior to you. So its not possible to use Dance Aside prior to your turn in the round, as the round always starts on your turn, everything is after your turn in the round. So you would have to hold ALL movement in order to use dance aside. Since if you move on your turn, you can't take a 5' step later in the round, and the round doesn't end until its your turn again.

 

[Supplement Four]

This doesn't make sense by the way D20 initiative works though.

That's what the rule book says, though.

Take a look at page 189 of 2E. "A character can move five feet in any round when he does not perform any other kind of movement."

If you Dance Aside before your action, you've taken a kind of movement during the round--and thus are barred from taking your five foot step during your turn later in the round.

Of course, you can still use normal movement, but it counts as an action and is not "free" like the normal five foot step.





EDIT:

A combat round isn't based on Initiative count. The round starts on your characters turn and ends at the end of the turn of whoever goes just prior to you. So its not possible to use Dance Aside prior to your turn in the round, as the round always starts on your turn, everything is after your turn in the round.

I understand your sentiment, and in a theoretical respect, what you say here is true.

But, by the rulebook, it's not true. Look at page 169 of 2E where it says "When everyone has had a turn, the combatants act in initiative order again, in another round of combat."

Thus, a combat round in the Conan RPG consists of everybody acting on their initiative. Once that is completed, round two begins, and the same order is followed.

(Another) Thus...if Glarb the Barbarian is third of five in initiative order, he doesn't get to act* until it's time for the third highest initiative score to go, and the complete round is over once the fifth character has completed his actions--according to the rules as written.


*Of course, the Dance Aside can be performed in response to an attack--possibly out of initiative order.


Therefore, RAW says that the round lasts from the time the first character acts to the time the last character completes his actions--not until that same character gets to act again.





2nd EDIT: I should not have said "or any other type of movement" above, because it's wrong. I was thinking of the five foot step--not normal movement--and, I've corrected that in this post.





3rd EDIT: Remember, in the Conan RPG, a combat round is 6 seconds long--which means each character gets to act their six seconds worth during the round. It's a non-simultaneous way of recording simultaneous action.

Think of it this way: If five combatants are in a combat round, all five begin their actions just about at the same time--trailing by a portion of a second. The first to act begins his action at the beginning of the first second and acts for the entire six seconds. A mili-second later, the second acts, and he acts for an entire six seconds. A mili-second after that, the third combatant acts and does his thing for the entire six seconds.

For all practical purposes, all actors during the round are starting at almost precisely the same time, and they're all acting simultaneously (we just look at each individual separately for convience of the game).

Thus, if you think about it like that, you are correct in saying that a character's action lasts until his next action--because the time between when the 2nd character in the round begins his action and ends it, then begins his action in round two, is about zero mili-seconds....because all characters are moving simultaneously.

So, you are correct in what you said, but it's also correct to say that each ever combat round can be divided by sets of initiative scores.

And...remember, the initiative score itself is meaningless except to order the combatants in the round.

 

[Nyarlathotep5150]

Page 180 of 2E: Anatomy of a combat round states that for almost all purposes there is no relevance to the beginning or end of a Combat round. It usually represents a span of time from one round, to the same initiative count in the next round.
And that all effects that have a duration in rounds end just prior to that characters turn on the last round.
So yes, according to the RAW that is how it works. Actions taken prior to the start of your turn are last rounds actions. Your action pool refreshes when your turn starts.


Also, 5' step says you can take a 5' step in any round where you take no other movement. It never says prior to the 5' step. It says no other movement period. If you take a 5 foot step, you can't use your move action to move.

This means that by the RAW, if you want to use Dance aside, you have to forgo all movement on your turn for the possibility of the maneuver going off. Now this is insane, but its really just a byproduct of independent D20 games failing to adequately distinguish between A 5' foot step and your allotted free 5' step.
In my games I run it as it would run in D&D. Dance Aside is a free step, that has no bearing on your allotted move actions. But by the RAW, you must hold all movement to use dance aside.

 

[Supplement Four]

So yes, according to the RAW that is how it works.

Your words seem to agree with what I wrote above...but I seem to be reading your tone as you don't agree. Maybe I'm reading you wrong.

Also, 5' step says you can take a 5' step in any round where you take no other movement. It never says prior to the 5' step. It says no other movement period. If you take a 5 foot step, you can't use your move action to move.

Yes, I agree with that. I think I said that above, but re-reading it doesn't look like I did. I never meant that you could take a 5 foot step and then take additonal movement.

See my examples a few posts above this one.

This means that by the RAW, if you want to use Dance aside, you have to forgo all movement on your turn for the possibility of the maneuver going off.

I'm not sure about that.

I think it reads: If you go second in the round and can Dance Aside during the first combatant's turn, then you cannot take your five foot step later--only because it specifically says no other movement is allowed.

I think they don't want to give you two Free Actions. The Dance Aside is an Immediate Action, and an Immediate Action is atype of Free Action.

Therefore...it being a free action...can't the character take his usual movment (as an action) later in the round when it's his turn?

 

[Nyarlathotep5150]

Thats not how it works though. If you dance aside on the opponents turn, then that counts against your actions from last round, and when your initiative comes up, that is the start of a new round.
In addition to that, if it worked the way your example shows, you wouldn't be able to move at all on your turn (dancing aside was your 5' step and no other movement is allowed when you take your 5' step).
Now, again this is just a problem of the Conan book (and many other D20 books) not adequately distinguishing between the 5' step rule and the allotted 5' step you can take.
D&D makes a pretty good distinction. It describes the 5' step rule (that a 5' step is a single square of movement that doesn't provoke AoO). And then goes on to describe that each character can take a 5' step on his turn if he takes no other movement.
This is how I run it in my games. Te limit on your 5' step applies only to the allotted movement for your turn, not to any special movement granted by powers and abilities. Powers and abilities break the standard rules.
I certainly wouldn't force someone to hold all movement on the hopes of using a power that will almost never trigger. The enemy has to roll less than half your dodge after all bonuses... which for most enemies equates to rolling 1-2 on the die.
I wouldn't do this for the same reason I wouldn't make a character with an ability that gives them a free attack, take a full attack action to use it (the combat rules say the only way to take more that one attack per round is a full attack action). Because, when a power gives you a move or attack, unless it states otherwise, that move or attack is in addition to your standard allotment. Dance Aside says it allows you to immediately take a 5' step. It doesn't say you use your allotted 5' step for it.

 

[Supplement Four]

Thats not how it works though. If you dance aside on the opponents turn, then that counts against your actions from last round, and when your initiative comes up, that is the start of a new round.

I thought we went over this. The book says the round is based in initiative turns. Everybody gets to go--new round 2--everybody gets to go--new round 3--everybody gets to go--new round 4--everybody gets to go.

If the character who acts first in a round attacks you, and you haven't gone that, that's still THIS ROUND.

It doesn't work as you keep trying to say it does, at least by the rules, where one character is in a different round from another. At any one time, all characters are in the same round whether they've gone yet or not.

At least, that's what the rules say.

In addition to that, if it worked the way your example shows, you wouldn't be able to move at all on your turn (dancing aside was your 5' step and no other movement is allowed when you take your 5' step).

That sounds about right. You can only move once per turn, and if you Dance Aside early in the round, you cannot take a five foot step later when its your action to go.

It describes the 5' step rule (that a 5' step is a single square of movement that doesn't provoke AoO). And then goes on to describe that each character can take a 5' step on his turn if he takes no other movement.

That's how it is described in the Conan RPG, too. So, if you take your Dance Aside early in the round, before your initiative, you cannot take a 5 foot step when its your turn to go because you've already taken some movement.

 

[Supplement Four]

I think we both agree that a character cannot both take a five foot step and any other move action in the same round. The rules are pretty clear about that.

With this in mind, consider the Dance Aside a method of taking your five foot step early, before your initative count during the round. Taking the Dance Aside is the same as taking your five foot step--you just do it at a different point during the round.

Therefore, if a character uses the Dance Aside, he cannot take any more movement that round, even if his initiative count is later in the round.

 

[Nyarlathotep5150]

I thought we went over this. The book says the round is based in initiative turns. Everybody gets to go--new round 2--everybody gets to go--new round 3--everybody gets to go--new round 4--everybody gets to go.

If the character who acts first in a round attacks you, and you haven't gone that, that's still THIS ROUND.

No. It says exactly the opposite. Read the anatomy of a combat round on page 180. It specifically states that Initiative rounds as based on the highest to lowest are irrelevant, and that a round is gauged as the length of time between individuals turn and when that character gets to act again. Rounds ARE relative to the individual and the round starts when your turn starts.

I think we both agree that a character cannot both take a five foot step and any other move action in the same round. The rules are pretty clear about that.

No I don't and no they aren't. The rules about limiting your 5' foot step, refer only to the allotted 5' step you can take on your turn (when it is your turn to act), any movement or 5' step granted by any other ability, unless it says otherwise, is in addition to that.
That is the problem. Conan failed to adequately distinguish in this area.
As where D&D was clear.

1) 5' Step= 1 square of movement that doesn't provoke AoO. Period. (when a power says it grants a 5' step, this is all it refers to)
2) You are able to take a 5' step on your turn if you take no other movement.

They are separate rules. One explains what a 5' step is. the other tells you about your intrinsic allotment of them. One has no bearing on the other.

 

[Supplement Four]

No. It says exactly the opposite. Read the anatomy of a combat round on page 180.

I've read it, and I see why you're so entrenched in your position. You're confusing holding over effects to the next round with the actual round count.

The reason it says that is for effects. Let's say I've got a spell that makes a 10' area burn for 6 seconds. If I'm the last person in the round to go, I'd be robbed of having that spell burn for 6 seconds unless you held it over to the next round, the same initiative count.

Notice the description you're referring to on pg. 180 says the same thing: ...to the same initiative count in the next round.

It's not one round they're describing there, but two.





Let me ask you this. Hopefully, it will make you re-think your position.

An alchemist has concocted an unstable liquid not unlike nitro or liquid gunpowder. If you throw a flask at the ground, it will explode. The stuff is so unstable, though, that sometimes it will explode all by itself, just sitting on the shelf.

Some of this stuff is sitting on a shelf in a room where the PCs are fighting, and the GM has determined that it will explode in six seconds, right at the end of the six second combat round.

When does this explode?




1. If you go by my definition, and what the book says, it will explode after after everyone in the room has had a chance to act once--each character gets six seconds to act.

2. If you go by what you're saying, then the flask explodes just before the last character acts on round two, because that's his full 6 second round. And, this gives everyone in front of him in the initiative chain two chances to act (12 seconds of action) except the last guy who only gets his 6 seconds and one chance to act.


Now, do you see?