[CONAN] A new race: ZAPOROSKANS

[LucaCherstich]

Where are the Slavs in Conan?
Difficult to answer.
We got bits and pieces from non-REH authors quoting slavic stuff in Brythunia or Zamora.
HOWEVER, as far as we can see the only OFFICIAL reference to a Slavic name in REH is "Olgerd Vladislav" in a Witch shall be born.
He is descriebd as a Zaporoskan.
My guess is that Zaporoskans are the result of a mixture of original inhabitants+ Hyrkanian and (maybe) hyborian influences.
The result is a "new race", the Zaporoskans, a sturdy kind of enemies of Turan.
They inhabit the steppe between teh Ilbars and Zaporoskan river, including the fearsome swamps at the mouths of the Zaporoska river.
They should often fill the ranks of both nomadic Kozaki and the pirates of the Red Brotherhood.

Check this discussion.
http://www.conan.com/invboard/index.php?showtopic=3923

Here is my proposal for ZAPOROSKANS.

Please, leave your comments!

ZAPOROSKAN
• The Zaporoskans are a hard race of survivors who proudly fight the Turanian iron fist. They always try to get the best from their environment: the harsh steppe around the Vilayet sea. The Zaporoskans get +2 to Survival, Intimidate, Ride and Swim rolls.
• +1 to atk with any bow.
• Weapon Familiarity: Zaporoskans can wield tulwars and Hyrkanian bows as though they were martial weapons rather than exotic weapons.

Background Skills: Craft (bowyer) or Handle Animal, Knowledge (local), Ride or Profession (Sailor), Survival.
Favoured Class: Nomad, Pirate
Prohibited Classes: None
Automatic Languages: Hyrkanian, Yuetshi
Bonus Languages: Brythunian, Zamorian, Kothic, Corinthian, Hyperborean, Vendhyan, Iranistani, Khitan, Shemitish, Stygian

 

[Supplement Four]

Nice.

 

[Spectator]

Hmmm, I like it, but to go and beat a hrykanian, I think they'll need a better bonus with a bow, or some other feat that allows them to escape hyrkanian arrows like a "make your horse move faster if you see the turanian army" feat.

Could a Zaporaskan be a combo of the northern hyborian races and aboriginal plainsmen (pre- turanian inhabitants?).

I like the concept a lot!

 

[LucaCherstich]

Let's try to make a comparison between Zaporoskans and Hyrkanians/Turanians.

WEAPON MODIFIERS
Hyrkanians: 4 DIFFERENT BONUSES
a) +1 atk with bows
b) +1/+2 to distant atk rolls
c) no prerequisites for the Far Shot feat (still to be bought).
d) weapon familiarity with Hyrkanians bows & Tulwars

Zaporoskans:2 BONUS
a) +1 atk with bows
b) weapon familiarity with Hyrkanians bows & Tulwars

SKILL BONUSES
Hyrkanians:
+2 to 3 skills (Diplomacy, Gather Information and Intimidate) but with a geographical LIMITATION
Zaporoskans:
+2 to 4 skills (Survival, Intimidate, Ride & Swim) but with NO Limitation.

PENALTIES:
Hyrkanians: -2 vs Hypnosis
Zaporoskans: none.

FAVOURED CLASS:
Hyrkanians: 1 class, Nomad (Soldier for Turanians, optional from H'F series)
Zaporoskans: 2 classes, Pirates and Nomads.


CONCLUSIONS:
Hyrkanians are better at war (They are the winners in this long war of conquest!) but they have penalties with Hypnosis and less useful/more limited Skill bonuses.
Zaporoskans are better at skills (e.g. a Ride bonus which Hyrkanians do not have) and slightly less apt with weapons, but they have no magic vulnerability.

I feel my vision of Zaporoskans is believable...

...but if you want to add something (if you feel Zaporoskans to be weak) I have 3 alternatives:


ALTERNATIVE 1: SCUM
a) Sneak Attack +1d6 (If all Zaporoskans are like Olgerd Vladislav they should be a bunch of scums, bandits and cuthroats!)
b) Reduce the Skill Bonuses from +2 to +1 (otherwise they should be much more stronger than other races with Sneak Attack, i.e. Zingarans).

ALTERNATIVE 2: SWORN ENEMY
Zaporoskans are mostrly Kozaki. So they hate Turanians!
+1 to atk and dmg vs Turanians, Hyrkanians and those wh oserve the crown of Turan
They are immune to the Hyrkanian bonus to social skills (e.g. Intimidation).

ALTERNATIVE 3: ENDURING PAIN
Zaporoskans are tough people resisting the Turanian oppression.
In "A witch shall be born" Olgerd Vladislav is able to resist his arm to be broken by Conan and he does not complains or shouts.
He is just silent and leaves the tent on his own two feet and rides a horse soon afterwards.
This suggest me of an aptitutude to resistance.
a) +2 to both Will and Fort saves.
b) They are considered to already have the "Whip Weary" feat (from Pirat Isles) if that feat is needed as a prerequisite for other feats

OR IN ALTERNATIVE: Bonus feat: Endurance

REGARDING ZAPOROSKAN ORIGINS:
REH does not say anything.
The fact that the only Slavic name we got in the Conan Canon is Olgered the Zaporoskan Kozak suggests that Zaporoskans are the only Slavic-like culture known to us thus far.
Some people like to see Slavic inputs in Zamora or Brythunia.
It could be, but I tend to see Brythunia as kind of Saxon Britannia and Zamora as an middle-eastern medieval country.

My guess is that Zaporoskans should derive from pre-Hyrkanian inhabitants of the Vilayet (the Yuetshi from the "the Devil in Iron" should be their relatives) but mixed with Hyrkanian, Zamoran and (maybe) Hyborian strains.
Olgerd is described as black haired.
My guess is that if you want more northern blood you should look for relative people inhabiting the region between the Ilbars River and Hyperborea.

 

[Supplement Four]

What if the term "Zaporoskan" does not actually refer to an entirely new race? I mean, I'm a Texan, but that just means I've spent most of my life in Texas. It doesn't actually refer to my race.

If that's the case, does there need to be a new set of stats for the Zapororskans?

I can think of arguments either way.

 

[LucaCherstich]

You are right, S4..but ethnicity is a complex issue, maybe too complicated to pretend to be accurate about in a rpg.
I'm just playing as if I was a Conanesque pastiche author...but the existence of a Zaporoskan strain of mixed bloods with strongly local roots make things interesting to me.
Kozaki accept everybody who has a grudge vs Turan & the Hyrkanians, but I guess the original inhabitants of the Vilayet (the Zaporoskans? and the Yuetshi?) shoud be primary elements in that group.
However, there is a series of facts which suggest the existence of a Zaporoskan Etnhicity:
- Olgerd is explicitely called "a Zaporoskan" in "A witch shall be born".
- Olgerd is the only character with a Slavic name setting him a part from other characters with names of different origins.
- Olgerd is a Kozak....the possible Russian/Steppe suggestion is clear to everybody...

AN EXCURSUS:
What do we know of the pre-Hyrkanian Vilayet?
Almost nothing I should say.
However, the existence of conquerors (the Hyrkanian Turanians) strongly suggest the existence of conquered people (Zaporoskans? Yuetshi?)
We only know that the Yuetshi were one of the groups among the pre-Hyrkanian peoples on the Vilayet.
They came here thousands years ago destroying a previous civilization of "Xapur" (see Devil in Iron).
I found this on the "Yuezhi" who could be the inspiration for the Yuetshi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuezhi

 

[Supplement Four]

Just being Devil's Advocate...

However, there is a series of facts which suggest the existence of a Zaporoskan Etnhicity:
- Olgerd is explicitely called "a Zaporoskan" in "A witch shall be born".

And, I am a Texan.

- Olgerd is the only character with a Slavic name setting him a part from other characters with names of different origins.

My name could be Sven, and I could still be a Texan. Sven is definitely not a name heard around these parts. In fact, I've never met anybody named Sven. But, I don't doubt that a Texan named Sven exists.

- Olgerd is a Kozak....the possible Russian/Steppe suggestion is clear to everybody...

I am a Texan, but I don't wear a hat, boots, or drive a pick-up. I don't even know how to ride a horse.

The great Pictish wilderness is home to many tribes of Picts. I'm sure that there are differences between the different peoples. The same goes for the Cimmerians. There's got to be differences between the mountain men, the hillmen, and the valleymen. But, the game doesn't decern between the different groups (and it probably should--I would encourage a GM to do it in a game).

OTOH, I do like granularity in the game. And, we do see it. For example, the Aquilonians are comprised of the Tauranians, the Bossonians, the Gundermen, (and the men from Pointain, though separate stats don't exist for that area of the kingdom), plus generic Hyborian Aquilonians.

So, in the end, what am I talking about here?

Nothing. Nothing really.

Go for it, dude. Let's see those Zapos.

 

[LucaCherstich]

Come on, S4!
You are an American, a nation with many ethnic influences and origins.
I was born and raised up in Italy from an Italian mother and a father was origin is complicated (Croatian/Albanian/Dalmatian), a fact which makes my ethnic identity quite difficult to discern.
And furthermore one ethnic identity has more to do with the unconscious/conscious choice of what you want to be according to what have you learned from your parents/ambient, or the setting where you live, rathen than with blood ancestry or bullshit stuff like "race"...
The first time I really felt to be Italian was when I lived in UK...

HOWEVER, I do not think REH was really thinking in those complicated sociological terms.

He was educated, but he still remained a countryside non-academic writer of the early 20th century.
He had no idea of the theoretical bases of ethnography or cultural anthropology.
He was raised up in an ambient who STILL believed in old, rusty concepts like the link culture/race which is far from obvious in the real world.
But the Hyborian Age was not the real world.
In many ways REH's Hyborian Age ethnography was very simple and basic.

In a "With shall be born" REH mentions somebody who:
- has a Slavic-like name (Olgerd Vladislav)
- is a Kozak/Cossack
- comes from the East, in a region neaby an inner sea (Vilayet/Caspian Sea)
- comes from a region/river whose name has quite a Slavic sound (ZAPOROSKA).
So, it is obvious that REH was using the "Slavic element" to differentiate Olgerd from other characters.
And given all of this reasoning, IT IS PERVERSE to deny the OBVIOUS fact that REH is refering to a kind of Slavic people.

The fact is even clearer if one examines the context (the story "A witch shall be born").
It is clear that none of the people mentioned in that story (Zuagirs, Kharamuni, Turanians, Khitani) have slavic names or slavic elements....so REH was CLEARLY suggesting a different ethnic origin for Olgerd Vladislav.
Off course he does not explicitely says so...but it is clear that Olgerd is not a Zuagir or a Turanian...
REH explicitely tells says what he is: Olgerd is a ZAPOROSKAN.
And to me this strongly suggests the possibility of an ethnic differentiation.

 

[Spectator]

I think you got it right:
Great thoughts, Luca!!!!

Let's try to make a comparison between Zaporoskans and Hyrkanians/Turanians.

WEAPON MODIFIERS
Hyrkanians: 4 DIFFERENT BONUSES
a) +1 atk with bows
b) +1/+2 to distant atk rolls
c) no prerequisites for the Far Shot feat (still to be bought).
d) weapon familiarity with Hyrkanians bows & Tulwars

Zaporoskans:2 BONUS
a) +1 atk with bows
b) weapon familiarity with Hyrkanians bows & Tulwars

SKILL BONUSES
Hyrkanians:
+2 to 3 skills (Diplomacy, Gather Information and Intimidate) but with a geographical LIMITATION
Zaporoskans:
+2 to 4 skills (Survival, Intimidate, Ride & Swim) but with NO Limitation.

PENALTIES:
Hyrkanians: -2 vs Hypnosis
Zaporoskans: none.

FAVOURED CLASS:
Hyrkanians: 1 class, Nomad (Soldier for Turanians, optional from H'F series)
Zaporoskans: 2 classes, Pirates and Nomads.


CONCLUSIONS:
Hyrkanians are better at war (They are the winners in this long war of conquest!) but they have penalties with Hypnosis and less useful/more limited Skill bonuses.
Zaporoskans are better at skills (e.g. a Ride bonus which Hyrkanians do not have) and slightly less apt with weapons, but they have no magic vulnerability.

I feel my vision of Zaporoskans is believable...

...but if you want to add something (if you feel Zaporoskans to be weak) I have 3 alternatives:


ALTERNATIVE 1: SCUM
a) Sneak Attack +1d6 (If all Zaporoskans are like Olgerd Vladislav they should be a bunch of scums, bandits and cuthroats!)
b) Reduce the Skill Bonuses from +2 to +1 (otherwise they should be much more stronger than other races with Sneak Attack, i.e. Zingarans).

ALTERNATIVE 2: SWORN ENEMY
Zaporoskans are mostrly Kozaki. So they hate Turanians!
+1 to atk and dmg vs Turanians, Hyrkanians and those wh oserve the crown of Turan
They are immune to the Hyrkanian bonus to social skills (e.g. Intimidation).

ALTERNATIVE 3: ENDURING PAIN
Zaporoskans are tough people resisting the Turanian oppression.
In "A witch shall be born" Olgerd Vladislav is able to resist his arm to be broken by Conan and he does not complains or shouts.
He is just silent and leaves the tent on his own two feet and rides a horse soon afterwards.
This suggest me of an aptitutude to resistance.
a) +2 to both Will and Fort saves.
b) They are considered to already have the "Whip Weary" feat (from Pirat Isles) if that feat is needed as a prerequisite for other feats

OR IN ALTERNATIVE: Bonus feat: Endurance

REGARDING ZAPOROSKAN ORIGINS:
REH does not say anything.
The fact that the only Slavic name we got in the Conan Canon is Olgered the Zaporoskan Kozak suggests that Zaporoskans are the only Slavic-like culture known to us thus far.
Some people like to see Slavic inputs in Zamora or Brythunia.
It could be, but I tend to see Brythunia as kind of Saxon Britannia and Zamora as an middle-eastern medieval country.

My guess is that Zaporoskans should derive from pre-Hyrkanian inhabitants of the Vilayet (the Yuetshi from the "the Devil in Iron" should be their relatives) but mixed with Hyrkanian, Zamoran and (maybe) Hyborian strains.
Olgerd is described as black haired.
My guess is that if you want more northern blood you should look for relative people inhabiting the region between the Ilbars River and Hyperborea.

 

[LucaCherstich]

Spectator, do you think I should use one of those 3 alternatives to power up Zaporoskans?
(And if so, which alternative?)
Or are the Zaporoskan stats OK as they are?

 

[Spectator]

Spectator, do you think I should use one of those 3 alternatives to power up Zaporoskans?
(And if so, which alternative?)
Or are the Zaporoskan stats OK as they are?

I like the SWORN ENEMY alternative, in addition I would grant all ZAPS with the Mounted Combat Feat, seeing that their entire life is spent in the saddle. More than the Turanians, who have settled (somewhat) into a cosmopolitan city life.

 

[LucaCherstich]

Nialdubh,
I'm sure you know how Dale Rippke discussed all of the post-REH misunderstandings of Hyborian geography.
The essay used to be here:

http://www.dodgenet.com/~moonblossom/Cmuse18.htm

But the link does not seem to work anymore!
I remember D.Rippke explaining why he put the Zaporoska and Ilbars there (as usual there's De Camp fault to have modified the original vision by REH...)

Spectator,
I prefer to give "Endurance" as a free feat, rather than Mounted Combat.
Hyrkanians are most famous for mounted combat and they still do not get that feat for free.
Zaporoskans already get a bonus to ride which the Hyrkanians do not get.

On the other hand Zaporoskans should be a hardy race (see Olgerd's broken arm scene), tehy should get teh "Endurance" feat for free.
Furthermore "Endurance" is useful even if you want your Zaporoskan to be a Vilayet pirate rather than a Kozak.

For the sake of game balance I'm inclined to give that Endurance for free OR the bonus vs Turanians...but not both
HOWEVER, maybe we can have both, but at the price of reducing the Skill bonuses from +2 to +1.

So here my final proposal:

ZAPOROSKANS (VERSION II)
• The Zaporoskans are a hard race of survivors who proudly fight the Turanian iron fist. They always try to get the best from their environment: the harsh steppe around the Vilayet sea. The Zaporoskans get +1 to Survival, Intimidate, Ride and Swim rolls.
• +1 to atk with any bow.
• Weapon Familiarity: Zaporoskans can wield tulwars and Hyrkanian bows as though they were martial weapons rather than exotic weapons.
• Sworn Enemy: Zaporoskans get a +1 to Atk and dmg rolls vs any Turanian, Hyrkanian or anyone who serve the Turanian crown.
• Free feat: Endurance

Background Skills: Craft (bowyer) or Handle Animal, Knowledge (local), Ride or Profession (Sailor), Survival.
Favoured Class: Nomad, Pirate
Prohibited Classes: None
Automatic Languages: Hyrkanian, Yuetshi
Bonus Languages: Brythunian, Zamorian, Kothic, Corinthian, Hyperborean, Vendhyan, Iranistani, Khitan, Shemitish, Stygian

 

[Spectator]

I like the final version a lot!

Nialdubh,
I'm sure you know how Dale Rippke discussed all of the post-REH misunderstandings of Hyborian geography.
The essay used to be here:

http://www.dodgenet.com/~moonblossom/Cmuse18.htm

But the link does not seem to work anymore!
I remember D.Rippke explaining why he put the Zaporoska and Ilbars there (as usual there's De Camp fault to have modified the original vision by REH...)

Spectator,
I prefer to give "Endurance" as a free feat, rather than Mounted Combat.
Hyrkanians are most famous for mounted combat and they still do not get that feat for free.
Zaporoskans already get a bonus to ride which the Hyrkanians do not get.

On the other hand Zaporoskans should be a hardy race (see Olgerd's broken arm scene), tehy should get teh "Endurance" feat for free.
Furthermore "Endurance" is useful even if you want your Zaporoskan to be a Vilayet pirate rather than a Kozak.

For the sake of game balance I'm inclined to give that Endurance for free OR the bonus vs Turanians...but not both
HOWEVER, maybe we can have both, but at the price of reducing the Skill bonuses from +2 to +1.

So here my final proposal:

ZAPOROSKANS (VERSION II)
• The Zaporoskans are a hard race of survivors who proudly fight the Turanian iron fist. They always try to get the best from their environment: the harsh steppe around the Vilayet sea. The Zaporoskans get +1 to Survival, Intimidate, Ride and Swim rolls.
• +1 to atk with any bow.
• Weapon Familiarity: Zaporoskans can wield tulwars and Hyrkanian bows as though they were martial weapons rather than exotic weapons.
• Sworn Enemy: Zaporoskans get a +1 to Atk and dmg rolls vs any Turanian, Hyrkanian or anyone who serve the Turanian crown.
• Free feat: Endurance

Background Skills: Craft (bowyer) or Handle Animal, Knowledge (local), Ride or Profession (Sailor), Survival.
Favoured Class: Nomad, Pirate
Prohibited Classes: None
Automatic Languages: Hyrkanian, Yuetshi
Bonus Languages: Brythunian, Zamorian, Kothic, Corinthian, Hyperborean, Vendhyan, Iranistani, Khitan, Shemitish, Stygian

 

[LucaCherstich]

Thinking again on Olgerd's broken arm scene, and reading again the description of the Endurance feat, I was thinking about changing the free "Endurance" with a simple "+1 to all save rolls" bonus.

What do you think about it?

 

[Supplement Four]

What do you think about it?

I think I like the attention to detail that you're putting into this.

 

[Spectator]

Thinking again on Olgerd's broken arm scene, and reading again the description of the Endurance feat, I was thinking about changing the free "Endurance" with a simple "+1 to all save rolls" bonus.

What do you think about it?

Nah. Keep the endurance feat, or if you think its too much of a good thing, limit endurance to the steppes/ deserts of Turan, as a geographical limitation.

 

[LucaCherstich]

S4:
Maybe it's because I've always felt the lack of proper Slavs or Proto-Slavs in the Hyborian age.
Maybe it has something to do with my being an Italian with Slavic and Albanian ancestors from my father line.
In any case I think REH never properly exploited the Slavs in his writings.
Forgetting the Slavs is pretty typical in a lot of western culture, including both fiction and academic culture.
I'm an archaeologist interested in these kinds of things.
And I got bored by how many books I've seen on the ethnogenesis (=birth of an ethnic) of so many bloody German or Celtic peoples.
Not that many books or studies about the ethnogenesis of Slavs...and if you have a look on eastern Europe you'll certainly notice that today Slavic languages and peoples are defitinitively more widespread than celtic languages and peoples.
If recent academics are so un-interested in Slavs I cannot pretend the not-academic, early-20th-century REH to be more accurate about proto-Slavs.
It's already a great fortune he mentioned the "Zaporoskan" Olgerd Vladislav.


Spectator:
The point is that "Endurance" does not help you with "remaining silent while your arm is broken".

In reality a "+1 to all saves" is much more advantageous bonus than the endurance feat (Ref save influces Initiative, and Fort save influences Massive Damage ...).

However, maybe you are right. I'll keep "Endurance for free" and then fullstop.

 

[Spectator]

You are right, I was worried +1 to all saves was a bit too damned strong.

Great point about the lack of "Slavic-ness" in our culture, despite the fact the largest countries and populations in europe are slavic, go figure.

REH was very broadminded and would not let a race/culture that was exciting escape his literary scope. The Cossack of real-life 1700 were basically the cowboys of the eastern steppe. It makes total sense to have them, since he was familiar with texan cowboys.

 

[LucaCherstich]

Even so there's a lot of exciting stuff on Slavic East which escaped REH' grasp.
The medieval history of the Slavs is exciting, especially regarding their relationship with Vikings, Mongols, Byzantines and Germans.
The fierce wars between Aleksander Njevski, prince of Novgorod, vs the Teutonic knights are stuff which should be taken as inspiration (for example in the Eastern wars of steppe peoples vs Turanians and Hyperboreans).
However, I do not blame REH.
The majority of Western Europeans (and I figure also North-Americans) ignore the Slavic role in history.
If it was not for the Slavs acting as a barrier in Russia vs the Mongols & in the Balkans vs the Ottoman Turks for 500-700 years I'm not sure we would speak English in this forum today ....
...but history channel shows prefer to speak of Feudal France, England and the Holy Roman Empire, and that's it.