Comparing Imperial Nobility with medieval/fantasy Nobility

[BType]

Like China you mean? The People's Republic of China? I guess calling something a "Republic" makes it one, so all we'd have to do is convince Emperor Stephron to call his Imperium a "Republic" and it would automatically be one, I am not that gullible I'm afraid.

No offense, but you appear to be not very informed either.
Neither the PROC or the Russian Federation are dictatorships, as they have no actual dictator as their head officials are elected into power.

Russia is a semi-presidential republic (meaning it has both a President and Prime Minister rather then just one or the otherd) with a multi-party representative democracy as it's fundamental structure.
China is organized under a socialist republic format. It actually has a congress too technically, but their power is fundamentally limited to stamping things the current group of Party officials in power sends their way, so it's mostly a formality at best.

Not saying either are especially great places to live; Russia has economic problems that seemingly won't go away with a governmental authority that is somewhat heavy-handed and conservative when it comes to freedom of speech and China has all the problems apparently inherent in large socialist groups as well as huge internal corruption problems and internal strife stemming from the fact that Tibet, Xianjing (Kazakhstan), and Inner Mongolia would rather not be a part of it at all, as well as the newer political tensions in Hong Kong.

But they are not however, dictatorships, especially in China as Xi Jinping legitimately worries constantly about being removed by the rest of his own party since his corruption crackdowns have pissed off a lot of influential people in his own government.

 

[Reynard]

50 shades of political grey. Traveller's government codes are fairly simplistic and straightforward unlike reality.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Like China you mean? The People's Republic of China? I guess calling something a "Republic" makes it one, so all we'd have to do is convince Emperor Stephron to call his Imperium a "Republic" and it would automatically be one, I am not that gullible I'm afraid.

No offense, but you appear to be not very informed either.
Neither the PROC or the Russian Federation are dictatorships, as they have no actual dictator as their head officials are elected into power.

Russia is a semi-presidential republic (meaning it has both a President and Prime Minister rather then just one or the otherd) with a multi-party representative democracy as it's fundamental structure.
China is organized under a socialist republic format. It actually has a congress too technically, but their power is fundamentally limited to stamping things the current group of Party officials in power sends their way, so it's mostly a formality at best.

Not saying either are especially great places to live; Russia has economic problems that seemingly won't go away with a governmental authority that is somewhat heavy-handed and conservative when it comes to freedom of speech and China has all the problems apparently inherent in large socialist groups as well as huge internal corruption problems and internal strife stemming from the fact that Tibet, Xianjing (Kazakhstan), and Inner Mongolia would rather not be a part of it at all, as well as the newer political tensions in Hong Kong.

But they are not however, dictatorships, especially in China as Xi Jinping legitimately worries constantly about being removed by the rest of his own party since his corruption crackdowns have pissed off a lot of influential people in his own government.

Do they have to worry about being reelected?

 

[BType]

Do they have to worry about being reelected?

Putin actually lost his position recently but the guy who got elected instead was so completely ineffectual and pathetic that he actually make Russia's economy worse (which is seemingly impossible but he still did it), so Putin went and got elected for the other position (Prime Minister) to mitigate the damage done. He's less likely to loose his position now then most real-life dictators because he is astoundingly popular in Russia since he spends a LOT of time on trying to make himself look like the biggest badass ever and Russia feels like it wants that largely because the country's been an economic toilet for close to twenty-five years. He's actually incredibly dependent upon maintaining his popularity unlike most dictators who just execute people who disagree.

Xi on the other hand not only has to worry about loosing his position, he probably has to worry about being killed by his own party at this point; the PROC's internal corruption was so endemic that his efforts to remove it, while a noble gesture at heart is an extremely stupid idea when the Party can legal vanish his ass off the face of the planet if the Party decides he's more trouble then he's worth. Interestingly the Hong Kong protests you may have been reading about recently are a result of this; normally Hong Kong's peaceful protests have been mostly overlooked by Beijing, but Xi is so terrified of looking weak in from of a Party who's wondering if he's more trouble then he's worth that he had the locals crack down on of WAY harder then usual.

In short; both have to worry about loosing power, constantly in fact.
And in one of their cases they might have to worry about their freedom or even life if he doesn't continue to toe the party line.

Dictatorships are by definition a government where a single individual holds all the power, by any definition of the word that includes an education behind it; the Russian Federation does not fit (it's Gang-infested economic pit) or the PROC (it's a Socialist Republic that is also in shaky economic condition with EXTREMELY questionable civil rights practices) fit the label.

North Korea on the other hand is a dictatorship, and is in fact such an incredibly generic dictatorship that you could literally put it in textbooks as an example of "this is what a military and political dictatorship looks like".

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Do they have to worry about being reelected?

Putin actually lost his position recently but the guy who got elected instead was so completely ineffectual and pathetic that he actually make Russia's economy worse (which is seemingly impossible but he still did it), so Putin went and got elected for the other position (Prime Minister) to mitigate the damage done. He's less likely to loose his position now then most real-life dictators because he is astoundingly popular in Russia since he spends a LOT of time on trying to make himself look like the biggest badass ever and Russia feels like it wants that largely because the country's been an economic toilet for close to twenty-five years. He's actually incredibly dependent upon maintaining his popularity unlike most dictators who just execute people who disagree.

Xi on the other hand not only has to worry about loosing his position, he probably has to worry about being killed by his own party at this point; the PROC's internal corruption was so endemic that his efforts to remove it, while a noble gesture at heart is an extremely stupid idea when the Party can legal vanish his ass off the face of the planet if the Party decides he's more trouble then he's worth. Interestingly the Hong Kong protests you may have been reading about recently are a result of this; normally Hong Kong's peaceful protests have been mostly overlooked by Beijing, but Xi is so terrified of looking weak in from of a Party who's wondering if he's more trouble then he's worth that he had the locals crack down on of WAY harder then usual.

In short; both have to worry about loosing power, constantly in fact.
And in one of their cases they might have to worry about their freedom or even life if he doesn't continue to toe the party line.

Dictatorships are by definition a government where a single individual holds all the power, by any definition of the word that includes an education behind it; the Russian Federation does not fit (it's Gang-infested economic pit) or the PROC (it's a Socialist Republic that is also in shaky economic condition with EXTREMELY questionable civil rights practices) fit the label.

North Korea on the other hand is a dictatorship, and is in fact such an incredibly generic dictatorship that you could literally put it in textbooks as an example of "this is what a military and political dictatorship looks like".

I'm not going to risk an answer right now, as I have something else in the works.

 

[Condottiere]

(Modern) Knighthoods tend to be rewards for services rendered, or an honour that's purchasable, especially if it can be granted in a lesser degree by subordinate nobility. Probably the same for Traveller.

In Traveller, the nobility acts as both a stabilizing force in an Empire that's so widely spread out, and the Emperor's eyes and ears, noting trends that may effect the security of the Empire, and ultimately, their positions. Imperial power and planetary customs may grant them an executive function under certain conditions in various degrees equal with their given responsibilities within an area of space. In theory, they should also be in tune with the local population, and be able to undertake measures to suppress dangerous sentiments.

It's probably easier to entrust this job of viceroy to a family whose members can inherit the position, then trying to train and inculcate the necessary values and desired virtues in a commoner, who might not have the same incentives as someone with a vested interest in keeping the title within the family. There's also the temptation to gorge yourself on all possible perquisites, opportunities and bribes before you're assigned another post.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

(Modern) Knighthoods tend to be rewards for services rendered, or an honour that's purchasable, especially if it can be granted in a lesser degree by subordinate nobility. Probably the same for Traveller.

In Traveller, the nobility acts as both a stabilizing force in an Empire that's so widely spread out, and the Emperor's eyes and ears, noting trends that may effect the security of the Empire, and ultimately, their positions. Imperial power and planetary customs may grant them an executive function under certain conditions in various degrees equal with their given responsibilities within an area of space. In theory, they should also be in tune with the local population, and be able to undertake measures to suppress dangerous sentiments.

It's probably easier to entrust this job of viceroy to a family whose members can inherit the position, then trying to train and inculcate the necessary values and desired virtues in a commoner, who might not have the same incentives as someone with a vested interest in keeping the title within the family. There's also the temptation to gorge yourself on all possible perquisites, opportunities and bribes before you're assigned another post.

How did that work out for the Holy Roman Empire? they had nobility too, was it a big help or a hurt?

 

[Condottiere]

Neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire.

The position of Emperor is an elected office, the electors being some of the powerful nobles that like autonomy. You're at loggerheads with the Pope, the Italians stick it to you when they can, the French decide they like Italian cuisine, and the Germans in the North have even a lower opinion of the Pope than you do.

 

[locarno24]

(Modern) Knighthoods tend to be rewards for services rendered, or an honour that's purchasable, especially if it can be granted in a lesser degree by subordinate nobility. Probably the same for Traveller.

In Traveller, the nobility acts as both a stabilizing force in an Empire that's so widely spread out, and the Emperor's eyes and ears, noting trends that may effect the security of the Empire, and ultimately, their positions. Imperial power and planetary customs may grant them an executive function under certain conditions in various degrees equal with their given responsibilities within an area of space. In theory, they should also be in tune with the local population, and be able to undertake measures to suppress dangerous sentiments.

It's probably easier to entrust this job of viceroy to a family whose members can inherit the position, then trying to train and inculcate the necessary values and desired virtues in a commoner, who might not have the same incentives as someone with a vested interest in keeping the title within the family. There's also the temptation to gorge yourself on all possible perquisites, opportunities and bribes before you're assigned another post.

There's a practical level to this, as well; Given that your 'noble representative' is supposed to be loyal to the Imperium and it's core worlds, the fact that it can take weeks or months for the fact that Count X of Y is dead to reach Capital - and as long again for any replacement to get into post. Having a...self sustaining succession plan?...has its benefits.

 

[Condottiere]

True, and the candidate is likely vetted already, unless the heir apparent died around the same time, not to mention likely indoctrinated through his education.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Suppose a Noble ambushes a bunch of pirates, takes them by surprise and kills a lot of them? The pirates scatter and then they spread rumors that the noble was a coward for not challenging them to a duel and facing them in single combat? They say that an ambush is a cowardly act unworthy of a Noble and also unchivalrous. What does the noble do in response to that?

 

[Condottiere]

You need standing, social or otherwise, to initiate a duel, which is why the Royal or Imperial family tends to be quite safe from challenges, though the unwise challenger might not be.

This includes a challenge from a young aristocrat against an older one, where in one case his inexperience and impetuousness made him challenge someone who is his peer, but under most circumstances can ignore the puppy, or someone in his prime against an elderly gentleman.

Sometimes, these challenges can be seen as pure impudence, in which case the challenged party just takes a horsewhip to emphasize his lecture on etiquette.

If the challenge is seen as assassination by proxy, including hiring a professional duelist, the duel might not be preventable, but social ostracism would follow, which could be equally fatal.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Suppose a Noble ambushes a bunch of pirates, takes them by surprise and kills a lot of them? The pirates scatter and then they spread rumors that the noble was a coward for not challenging them to a duel and facing them in single combat? They say that an ambush is a cowardly act unworthy of a Noble and also unchivalrous. What does the noble do in response to that?

In the Third Imperium, it does not matter. Who is going to listen to a bunch of pirates who have questionable legal status and no? The sensor logs would reveal the truth of the matter even if such a thing were brought to the attention and addressed by a higher Noble. Chivalry does not appear to be a feature of Third Imperium nobility. Never heard of dueling nobles in the 3I in the published sources (Deneb Sector not withstanding). Getting things done for the benefit of the Third Imperium/Emperor/Archduke/Duke, sure.

The noble in question may have an attitude and do something about it which may have it its own consequences...

 

[dragoner]

Yes, noble rules on apply to other nobility, so kill at will; or at least that was the way it was, according to God, and if you don't like it, you are apostate, and subject to being crucified.

Such a lovely system of social control.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Yes, noble rules on apply to other nobility, so kill at will; or at least that was the way it was, according to God, and if you don't like it, you are apostate, and subject to being crucified.

Such a lovely system of social control.

that is called a "but". True nobles act noble all the time to everyone. So a true noble never engages in a sneak attack, and always fights fair, given the enemy plenty of warning so he can fight him like a man, not a coward! So you don't really want a true Noble with you in modern combat, he will give up the element of surprise every time.

 

[dragoner]

That is exactly how it was for hundreds of years until the reformation, then it got worse for common people. A true noble was of noble blood, like cousins getting married.

 

[Rick]

that is called a "but". True nobles act noble all the time to everyone. So a true noble never engages in a sneak attack, and always fights fair, given the enemy plenty of warning so he can fight him like a man, not a coward! So you don't really want a true Noble with you in modern combat, he will give up the element of surprise every time.

Yes, that happened all the time throughout history. IN HOLLYWOOD.

Seriously, the 'chivalric code' died along with the flower of the French nobility on the fields of Crecy and Agincourt, killed by the longbow - it's true, they told us so afterwards!

The ideals of the 'chivalric code' or 'code of Bushido' were only upheld during the period after said bloodthirsty hereditary landowners had stopped fighting amongst themselves and had a vested interest in growing old. The only reason nobles used any chivalry when fighting each other before that period was because they stood to gain the captured nobles ransom from his family, if he was still alive.

Let's not start imposing a 'rose tinted' view of history based on stuff that never happened and only exists in the pages of fantasy rpg's.

 

[Condottiere]

It touches on your personal honour, or on a subject that reflects on your honour, like insulting some venerated institution while you are within earshot.

Generally, during the mythic period when such honour codes were supposedly developed, most took a more pragmatic view in regard whether they could live with such slurs; once that period had past, and with nothing really existential to distract them, the aristocracy tended to view such matters more seriously.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

That is exactly how it was for hundreds of years until the reformation, then it got worse for common people. A true noble was of noble blood, like cousins getting married.

I think you have to differentiate between Noble and Aristocrat. An Aristocrat is supposedly of Noble Blood, but he can act as cowardly and as craven as he likes, he has lots of body guards, and tries to enjoy his privileges while avoiding a fight whenever he can. A Noble lives to fight. I think a lot of what's called Nobility in the Traveller Universe actually refers to Aristocracy, but I think the true hero is the Noble that lives by a code, which he doesn't make a lot of exceptions for, or give himself an out for.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

that is called a "but". True nobles act noble all the time to everyone. So a true noble never engages in a sneak attack, and always fights fair, given the enemy plenty of warning so he can fight him like a man, not a coward! So you don't really want a true Noble with you in modern combat, he will give up the element of surprise every time.

Yes, that happened all the time throughout history. IN HOLLYWOOD.

Seriously, the 'chivalric code' died along with the flower of the French nobility on the fields of Crecy and Agincourt, killed by the longbow - it's true, they told us so afterwards!

The ideals of the 'chivalric code' or 'code of Bushido' were only upheld during the period after said bloodthirsty hereditary landowners had stopped fighting amongst themselves and had a vested interest in growing old. The only reason nobles used any chivalry when fighting each other before that period was because they stood to gain the captured nobles ransom from his family, if he was still alive.

Let's not start imposing a 'rose tinted' view of history based on stuff that never happened and only exists in the pages of fantasy rpg's.

But it would be so amusing if we did. Lets face it, aristocrats are boring, a true Noble is interesting. Now what would be more of a challenge. Lets say the PCs have a new patron, a member of the Nobility, lets say a count, this count has led a protected life, and didn't have much contact with other members of the aristocracy, and he is actually quite young and has read a lot of books, but he as trained in various fighting styles, he knows his way around modern weapons, his parents were long dead, and he is raised by a regent. The regent did not have much time to tell him about the real world, and frankly he did not care, to him the young count was a source of power, he let him do what he wanted, and when he came of age, he would find a way to get rid of him before he took the reins of power. Well the regent's plans went awry, seems the count made friends with a number of his servants, and foiled the plot, so the regent is now in jail and the young count came of age, except he does not know how to act as a real count, all he has are examples from fantasy literature and although he agrees that he's not living in a world of medieval knighthood, he thinks the ideals of Chivalry can somehow be applied, he takes being a count seriously, and his contacts with other members of the nobility have left him disappointed, and he figures he'll show them, and it just so happens that his particular count happens to be the PCs patron, and he insists on fair fights whenever the situation presents itself, so its the PCs job more or less to restrain this young Noble and try to prevent him from getting them all killed while fulfilling the mission and getting paid, and the worst part is the young count always insists on joining in and refuses to act as a coward