Combination of spiritual and divine magic

[juhanfg]

Hi,

Another question about the magic system. From the books it appears as it is not possible to combine divine and spiritual magic. Seems like you cannot be an initiate and use spiritual magic.

While this might make sense considering that there is the runemagic as well, in certain cases there a wholes in the system.

In thinking in particular of the odayla people in Kealos in eastern Ralios as described by the glorantha-second age ralios book. In there it sates that the main god that they follow is Odayla the orlanthi hunter god (described in Gods of Glorantha 1) and the second in Kolat that is a wind spirit with similar cult as the horned man (Gods of glorantha 2). It seems a bit odd that those people would not be able to combine both times of magic.

Also, Odayla requires the initiates to use the spell 'peaceful cut' in the animals they hunt, but pacific cut is not a divine spell, is a spiritual/runic one and I it seems to me that for something that is requirement for the initiates, it should be some kind of divine spell or that they can get the spiritual magic form the shamanic cults. Otherwise all the initiates of the Odayla cult must have the runes integrated or stop hunting to avoid pissing of their god for not been able to perform the spell.

At the end the only way around is seems let people use both types of magic combined as long as it is not cults going in opposite directions.

I thought of making a divine 'peaceful cut' spell, but that is unworkable since hunters are not going to be paying/waiting for the spell for every animal they catch. It would be the ruin of the hunter that had to do that everytime they went hunting.

Any ideas on how to combine both types of magic in general and what limits to impose?

 

[weasel_fierce]

The limits only kick in once you start to rise in the hierachy of a practice or cult.

Common foilk use whatever tehy can get their hands on

 

[juhanfg]

The limits only kick in once you start to rise in the hierachy of a practice or cult.

Common folk use whatever tehy can get their hands on

I know, the problem is that if your are an initiate of odayla your need the spiritual spell "peaceful cut" and in principle you cannot use it because you are an initiate.

It just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[weasel_fierce]

Initiates can have spirit magic. Its Acolyte level that forbids it

 

[juhanfg]

Initiates can have spirit magic. Its Acolyte level that forbids it

That means that you then that you cannot become a acolyte/priest because peaceful cut is a spiritual spell and you would be force to forget it but required to use it in every hunt.

It displaces the problem until later, but it doesn't solve it. Unless you stop going hunting or leave the initiates to do the ritual.

My point is that in certain situations divine and spiritual magic must be able to mix. Think the Odayla people or think other population with a mix of gods and spirits.

I'm thinking that if the elves and trolls can get away with it, so should other people unless it goes completely against the cult.

 

[weasel_fierce]

Since its a required spell, just let them use it, regardless of its origins. The characteristics of the cult should have priority over the generic rules, I think.

 

[gamesmeister]

This is just a bi-product of what was originally one cults book being split into two. There were some editing issues that resulted in a few anomolies, peaceful cut being one of them.

I'd suggest simply using Peaceful Cut as a Rune spell for Odayla cultists, linked to the Beast and Spirit runes

 

[sidkfjjteidlkkf]

The limits only kick in once you start to rise in the hierachy of a practice or cult.

Common foilk use whatever tehy can get their hands on

AHHH, Players guide covers FOLK MAGIC....

 

[juhanfg]

This is just a bi-product of what was originally one cults book being split into two. There were some editing issues that resulted in a few anomolies, peaceful cut being one of them.

I'd suggest simply using Peaceful Cut as a Rune spell for Odayla cultists, linked to the Beast and Spirit runes

But every initiate must have the beast and spirit rune integrated before they become one... so I guess that implies that runes are quite common.

I think that for cults where there is association with spirit magic such as Odayla and Kolat it is reasonable to assume that initiates are spiritists of the spiritual practice and acolytes and up are considered practicioners of the spiritual practice.

 

[Sinisalo]

It would mean that Odayla acolytes couldnt hunt which would defeat the object of being odaylan. Odayla was always a little primitive (see the beast hunting fetishes in Storm Tribe) so you could allow them to have the charm to cast peaceful cut.

This is also a legacy of the "must have runes before casting cult rune magic" fiasco. If like most of this board you allow initiates to use cult rune magic without owning runes then its alright.

Me I'd make up a folk magic spell called "Cutting Peacefully 1pt"

 

[Sinisalo]

I'd suggest simply using Peaceful Cut as a Rune spell for Odayla cultists, linked to the Beast and Spirit runes

Loads of people say these things as if the spriritual ecology of Glorantha was one of robbing and killing your neighbours which it isn't. For starters it isn't sustainable.

 

[juhanfg]

Me I'd make up a folk magic spell called "Cutting Peacefully 1pt"

That is a useful solution. I still haven't look at the folk magic rules, but peaceful is something for everyday use and I think it probably fits well into the folk magic area.

 

[CharlieMonster]

I hate to render the whole thread irrelevant but Peaceful Cut is listed in CoG2 (p.78.) as a Rune Spell and explicitly talks about Runecasting in the description. So what was the question again?

 

[juhanfg]

I hate to render the whole thread irrelevant but Peaceful Cut is listed in CoG2 (p.78.) as a Rune Spell and explicitly talks about Runecasting in the description. So what was the question again?

I know that it is listed there. The thread was supposed to be about the the fact that as everything stands now all initiates and above must have the fertility and death runes integrated and the spell learned before they become initiates because of the restriction that they must use peaceful cut every time they hunt.

It seems like there is either a large provision of those types of runes in the regions where Odayla y worshipped or the number of initiates is quite small. in general it seems quite restrictive, but maybe that's the point.

 

[gamesmeister]

I'd suggest simply using Peaceful Cut as a Rune spell for Odayla cultists, linked to the Beast and Spirit runes

Loads of people say these things as if the spriritual ecology of Glorantha was one of robbing and killing your neighbours which it isn't. For starters it isn't sustainable.

Huh?

Ah, I presume you are making the assumption that I insist PCs must integrate runes before learning cult rune spells. No, it isn't sustainable, which is one of half a dozen reasons why I don't use that rule.

 

[Sinisalo]

Huh?

Ah, I presume you are making the assumption that I insist PCs must integrate runes before learning cult rune spells. No, it isn't sustainable, which is one of half a dozen reasons why I don't use that rule.

In my opinion there should be in an errata a rule that lets initiates have the cult rune spells without integrating the runes.

What skill are your players using to cast the magic, if I may be so bold?

 

[juhanfg]

So in order to make things work it seems like most people ignore the rules about the rune integration.

Although it is a viable solution, there is one thing to be solved: which skill do you use to cast the spell? Lore (Specific) theology? Or do you gain the runecasting skill as part of becoming an initiate?

It also makes me think that the whole rune magic system doesn't fit well with the other types of magic.

Can anyone from mongoose clarify on how to play this? (I don't know if I would get an answer but it would be nice).

 

[gamesmeister]

Huh?

Ah, I presume you are making the assumption that I insist PCs must integrate runes before learning cult rune spells. No, it isn't sustainable, which is one of half a dozen reasons why I don't use that rule.

In my opinion there should be in an errata a rule that lets initiates have the cult rune spells without integrating the runes.

What skill are your players using to cast the magic, if I may be so bold?

My take on this whole topic is discussed here, but in answer to your question, Lore (Theology) of the cult that provides the spell.

 

[weasel_fierce]

My take on this whole topic is discussed here, but in answer to your question, Lore (Theology) of the cult that provides the spell.

Thats what makes the most sense, I think

 

[juhanfg]

My take on this whole topic is discussed here, but in answer to your question, Lore (Theology) of the cult that provides the spell.

It looks quite reasonable. I think I might use your ideas.