Combat Questions

[Jak Nazryth]

Targeting a "hex" or "square" and Blast damage

Do you get a bonus to hit a hex or square? This comes up when dealing with explosives, grenades, and other area effect weapons.
For instance... My character makes a successful stealth roll and I sneak up close to a group of 4 bad guys hanging out having a smoke break, trading dirty jokes, etc.. and I want to toss a grenade to a specific hex/square so I can be sure to get them all.
Is it harder for me to hit a 1.5 meter hex/square patch of dirt, than it is for me to hit a human sized object? Do I still need to roll an 8+ to "hit the hex/square" or do I get a bonus to hit?

Moreover, if that same group of guys are behind low cover, like a stone wall... maybe 1 meter high, and I want to lob a grenade over it, does the hex/square I'm targeting get partial cover?

If I miss, does the grenade scatter in a random direction, 1 square per the number I miss by? So if I miss by 3, does the grenade land in a random direction 3 squares away?

The same question applies for rocket launchers, grenade launchers, flame throwers, and some plasma weapons. In most cases, you are usually trying to hit a spot on the ground, not an individual person.

Ships VS people

On page 157, when describing ship weapons vs vehicles, it interchanges "vehicles" with "Ground targets" and interchanges "vehicle mounted weapons" with "normal weapons".
By the time it discusses scale factor, the rule drops the "vehicle" completely in exchange for "ground target" as in "Damage to ground targets is 1d x 10"
Since the phrasing changed from vehicle to ground targets it confuses me because there is already a scale between vehicle weapons and personal weapons. Does this mean people = ground targets with the x10 modifier?

I think there are actually 3 scales of damage here, not 2. Instead of "Ship" and "Ground Targets" I think the intent of this rule is really "Ship, Vehicle, and Personal"
Yes, a person or group of guys standing near a hostile landing zone is still a "ground target" but I think it's a x100 modifier on people, not x10. This is important because a ships weapons also have a 10 meter blast radius. So even if a ship is targeting that APC, any troops with 10 meters would also get caught in the blast.
Well armored troops in Combat Armor and Battle Dress have have a little resistance against vehicle weapons, and might actually survive a hit or two if they are really lucky... but a ships weapon? I think it not.
Is my interpretation of this rule correct?

 

[Jeraa]

Since the phrasing changed from vehicle to ground targets it confuses me because there is already a scale between vehicle weapons and personal weapons. Does this mean people = ground targets with the x10 modifier?

Unless it was added in the new vehicle book, no there isn't. Unless you are counting Destructive weapons as a different scale. They aren't. They are just a way to avoid rolling handfuls of dice.

The table makes it clear there are only 2 scale - Ground and Space. You'll notice that there are only rules about different scales in the Spacecraft chapter, because only spacecraft use a different scale. If there was a different scale between characters and vehicles, it would be mentioned in the combat chapter or the vehicle chapter.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

There were plans for a separate vehicle scale, and the first beta edition had it.

It was removed early in the testing process however, but some mentions of it might have evaded the editing process.

 

[Jak Nazryth]

Since I started with the Beta test, right before fading out of the Traveller scene for a while, that is probably where I remembered it, causing the confusion.
I wen't home for lunch, I live 5 minutes from my office... , to verify what you said, and you are correct. Thanks for straightening me out.
I've only had the new rules for about a week now and I'm slowly going through them.
I have the CSC as well... and holy crap! A PGMP is more powerful than a space defense laser cannon! 7d6 for the space defense cannon vs (an adjusted) 10d6 for the PGMP. Sure the cannon has more range, but it's just funny that an average hit from a cannon (around 21) would bounce off a marine in battle dress! And the cannon is designed to bring down star ships!

So basically if the weapon has 9d6 damage or less, you roll normally. If it has 10d6 or more, you role as "destructive" / 1d6 x 10.
I guess there is nothing in the rules that would prevent old time Traveller players that are used to rolling high dice anyway to roll the 10 dice if they wanted.
Some of them I know for a fact would prefer the 12d6, 14d6, 15d6 versions of heavy guns in MgT1...

So enough of scaling. That is clear to me.


What about targeting "a hex" or "a square"? Any scatter rules?

 

[Jeraa]

What about targeting "a hex" or "a square"? Any scatter rules?

No scatter rules in 2e, except for weapons with the Artillery trait (Central Supply Catalog).

As for targeting a square, it is the same as targeting anything else. There are no special modifiers that apply, aside from the modifier for range (but that applies to all ranged or thrown attacks).

 

[Jak Nazryth]

I haven't had a chance to look at the artillery rules yet. I'll check them out tonight. You might be able use use the same rule.

But the question remains... if you miss with a thrown grenade, rocket launcher, grenade launcher, flame thrower, etc.. where does it go?
It's still going to do damage, somewhere, and because it's area effect it can still hurt the person even though you missed.
I thought this might buried somewhere in the new rules, but unless Mongoose comes up with a scatter rule for personal area effect weapons (IF the artillery trait rules don't make sense), we can just use our on house rules.

Mine is roll 1d6 for direction, and the grenade, or rocket, or flamer... is ends up a number of meters based on how much you missed.
Miss by 3, then 3 meters in a random direction. Heck, if you roll bad enough, you could even harm friends or people and "stuff" you meant to be out of a blast radius.
Roll an adjusted 0 or negative number... guess what, you drop it at your feet.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

I believe Mercenary had rules for indirect fire and scatter, I'll check later tonight!

Your solution sounds like it would work! I'd just like to add that unless you're in combat, under stress and being fired upon, you should be able to easily claim the maximum aim bonus of +6 to your throw (Pun intended, of course!) which, combined with the blast radius of the grenade should perhaps not ensure but at least aid greatly in your effort to blow up those poor defenseless NPCs

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Ah, yes there it is! Mercenary 2nd edition, p.20, indirect fire, has the rules you're looking for. I'm not sure whats allowed regarding posting rules though?

 

[Jeraa]

Ah, yes there it is! Mercenary 2nd edition, p.20, indirect fire, has the rules you're looking for. I'm not sure whats allowed regarding posting rules though?

That is also a 1st edition MgT book. Both editions of the Mercenary book are for 1e (it can get confusing). The only 2e MgT mercenary book is Referee's Briefing 4 - Mercenary Forces.

The 1e core rulebook did have a scatter rule. IF you failed the attack, its scattered (6 + Effect) meters in a random direction. Though as written, that make a really bad attack roll more accurate, as you would be adding a negative Effect. 6 + -6 (failed attack roll by 6) = 0 meters scattered, while 6 + -1 (just barely missed) = 5 meters scattered. Changing it to the Effect of the failed attack = number of meters scattered could work. So if you failed by 1, the attack is off by 1 meter. If you failed by -6, the attack scatters 6 meters.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

True that. Most of it is still useable though, even if some details require a small tweak to work with the new rule system.

Basically, there was a penalty to hit, and if the exact target point wasn't known (behind a wall for example) the attack would scatter. How much depended on distance, and was reduced by effect.

With the current rulebook, I'm inclined to use the bane mechanics for the initial attack roll, and d6 scatter sounds reasonable, perhaps increased by 1 for every 10 meters or something like that?

 

[Jeraa]

True that. Most of it is still useable though, even if some details require a small tweak to work with the new rule system.

Basically, there was a penalty to hit, and if the exact target point wasn't known (behind a wall for example) the attack would scatter. How much depended on distance, and was reduced by effect.

That is what the Artillery trait does in 2e Central Supply Catalog. And even then, it only scatters if you can't see the target. If you can see the target, there is no scatter. It is something missing in the rules.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

yup, you're right, the new artillery rule has much in common with the old one from Mercenary.

The only time I feel an attack should scatter if the target is known and in sight is if it misses, and then perhaps the blast trait would be able to mitigate that (miss a little and blast a lot, and you just might hit!). A hit is a hit, imho, especially with modern of futuristic weapons.

 

[Jak Nazryth]

The bane rule sounds like good idea if it's beyond your normal effective "throw" range.
I'm central standard time in the USA (Texas) so I know a lot of you guys in GB will be home and have answers long before me.
I'll have to check the athletics skill when I get home, but I think you use DEX as the skill but the distance you can throw is based on your STR?
If you throw a grenade beyond your effective range, I think that's when you would use the band dice.

I play airsoft, and I've got lots of "kills" using airsoft grenades (CO2 powered "bang" canisters made of plastic). Most of the time I toss them around corners or over berms... usually with 10-15 meters. Sometimes the range is so great you just rare back with all my strength and throw as hard as I can.... to me that is "beyond effective range" and you would get a bane dice. I know, because even though I might throw it 30 yards (28 or so meters?) it would be pretty far off target. My target would simply watch it arch through the air and get out of the way before it lands...

 

[Jeraa]

The bane rule sounds like good idea if it's beyond your normal effective "throw" range.
I'm central standard time in the USA (Texas) so I know a lot of you guys in GB will be home and have answers long before me.
I'll have to check the athletics skill when I get home, but I think you use DEX as the skill but the distance you can throw is based on your STR?
If you throw a grenade beyond your effective range, I think that's when you would use the band dice.

I play airsoft, and I've got lots of "kills" using airsoft grenades (CO2 powered "bang" canisters made of plastic). Most of the time I toss them around corners or over berms... usually with 10-15 meters. Sometimes the range is so great you just rare back with all my strength and throw as hard as I can.... to me that is "beyond effective range" and you would get a bane dice. I know, because even though I might throw it 30 yards (28 or so meters?) it would be pretty far off target. My target would simply watch it arch through the air and get out of the way before it lands...

Grenades have a listed range of 20 meters (thrown - launched grenades would use the range of the launcher). They follow the normal rules for range. +1 DM to hit at up to 1/4 the listed range (So up to 5 meters - you really want to throw agrenade farther than this as you would still be within the blast radius), no DM at normal range (6-20 meters), -2DM to hit at up to twice the listed range (21-40 meters), and a -4 DM to hit at up to 4x the range (40-80 meters). Strength has nothing to do with it. The skill used to throw is Athletics (Dexterity).

 

[Jak Nazryth]

Hmmm...
Your strength has nothing to do with the distance you can throw any amount of mass? Really Mongoose?
The next big airsoft game I'll let our "strength Challenged" high school kid throw the grenades at the green team. lol..

But Jeraa is correct stating the rules. I know its the Mongoose rule as written, but IMHO it think it's a bit silly. "Strength has nothing to do with it". That made me laugh out loud.
I've been playing GURPS for the last 30 years on a fairly consistent basis, so my default mindset is the range of any thrown object depends on your strength.. because it's reality. I get it though. Different rule system.
I might house rule something that affects the distance of a thrown object up or down based on your Str modifier in meters. +2 Str = +2 meters to base range. Same way affect in the opposite direction.
If it ever comes up in game, I'll make a judgement call then.