Combat maneuver select location

Armak

Mongoose
I have played Runequest the original since 1981 or so, moved to Herowars/Hq for Call of Cthlhu for awhile. Recently kickstarted my Glorantha campaign with MRQ2 rules. After 3 sessions I find that the CM select location comes up perhaps a tad too often with the intent "Headshot" from the players especially if there are several players involved. The optional rule +10% for same maneuver does not get into play as the fight is over very quickly. This seems a bit anti Maximum Game Fun :-) Have you observed the same? What have you done to make this more even... I am considering only allowing the select location on criticals...
 
That does seem a little frequent. A simple combat maneuver, not even requiring a critical, and you get a head shot...

I think I might consider changing Choose Location to Alter Location, and allow the attacker to move the location by one in any direction. So only a chest roll could be moved to head, or abdomen, or either arm, while a leg hit would only move to abdomen; abdomen to either leg or chest; arm or head to chest, only.

Or maybe - maybe - have it change the *die roll* by one in either direction, after it's been rolled. You could even have it be the kind of CM that could be taken more than once, and improve the effect.

The first system allows head shots 25% of the time (any chest or head roll) while the second allows it to be between 15 and 25%...
 
Armak said:
I have played Runequest the original since 1981 or so, moved to Herowars/Hq for Call of Cthlhu for awhile. Recently kickstarted my Glorantha campaign with MRQ2 rules. After 3 sessions I find that the CM select location comes up perhaps a tad too often with the intent "Headshot" from the players especially if there are several players involved. The optional rule +10% for same maneuver does not get into play as the fight is over very quickly. This seems a bit anti Maximum Game Fun :-) Have you observed the same? What have you done to make this more even... I am considering only allowing the select location on criticals...

Totally agree, we found the same and changed choose location to a critical success only and it worked fine - now the players are hammering impale!!
 
I've been running Elric for a while now and encourage creative play as much as possible.
In my experience, it's not over used.
CAs like Bash, bleed, Impale etc etc get used a quite a bit.

Maybe you should encourage people to try out the other CAs, they can be really effective and don't seem as obviously useful as Choose location.
 
danskmacabre said:
I've been running Elric for a while now and encourage creative play as much as possible.
In my experience, it's not over used.
CAs like Bash, bleed, Impale etc etc get used a quite a bit.

Maybe you should encourage people to try out the other CAs, they can be really effective and don't seem as obviously useful as Choose location.

I did encourage but it did not take so I legislated ...
 
I now my group. If there is option for simple headshot and it maxes the tactics... Legislation it is. Good suggestions on the 'move the loc'
 
...or simply make sure that, realistically, if the enemy is wearing any armour at all it's a helmet. If the head is always the most armoured location then choose loc: head is a lot less sexy.
 
The choosing of CMs is my least favourite Legend/MRQ2 rule, mainly because Choose Location is so overwhelmingly popular. I am very tempted to make it "critical only" in my game. Also it slows down combat with less rules-savvy players looking through the list and asking about them.
 
PhilHibbs said:
The choosing of CMs is my least favourite Legend/MRQ2 rule, mainly because Choose Location is so overwhelmingly popular. I am very tempted to make it "critical only" in my game. Also it slows down combat with less rules-savvy players looking through the list and asking about them.

Do you mean critical only for any CM?

Be interesting to see how Runequest 6 deals with combat...
 
I really do think the other CAs are very powerful..
Impale gives max damage on one dice and the recipient also operates at a penalty.

Bash is great, especially on ship combat (which happens a lot in my campaign) knocking someone off a ship or into a hold).

Maximise damage is awesome.

Many of the other CAs can be used in interesting and fun ways. I have no problem with the CAs.
All sorts of stuff that if you think tactically you can have some really interesting combats.
I did say right at the start of my campaign that I look favorably on those who think creatively, rather than those who look at the numbers and try to optimise.

I'm not saying Choose location isn't good, I just think it isn't all that better than other crits.
I would say mostly (maybe 70% of the time) so far the adventurers have mostly fought other humanoids, who often wear helmets.

Maybe you could do some test combats to show how effective the other CAs can be?

But still, I think if it's a problem in your game and the players simply won't try something different, changing it to a Crit only CA is probably a good solution.
 
I have come to a solution for players always always selecting head hits.

I have altered chose location to allowing the attacker to alter the location dice roll by +/-5. If it is a critical, they can select the location as normal.
 
danskmacabre said:
Maybe you could do some test combats to show how effective the other CAs can be?

Probably the most definitive way to demonstrate the power and effectiveness of CMs is for foes to use them very effectively against players in combat. Once a player has been effectively bashed, tripped and pinned he might see the usefulness of those moves in the future.

Greg Smith said:
I have altered chose location to allowing the attacker to alter the location dice roll by +/-5. If it is a critical, they can select the location as normal.

IIRC, this was how it worked in Chaosium's original RQ. IIRC, there you could roll a D10 on a critical to move your strike that many points to the desired location.
 
Well.. I always go for the head when I'm fighting...

If it was in a real fight and my opponent wasn't wearing a helmet, I'd go for the head as well (that is why even peasants often wore a helmet of some sort when going to war .. and sorta also why the helmet is almost the only kind of armour left for modern troopers (disregarding assault armour / frag vests).

I'd handle it by encouraging players to explore other CMS / using other CMs against them to show them that their useful + making the head the location your NPCs throw armour on first.. like real people.

Then again, I do like the idea of making it more restriced and only allowing to change one "step" per choosing, as afterwall it isn't that easy to hit an opponents head... hmm, maybe I'll give that a try at some point

And of course, realism doesn't necessarily need to mean squat.

- Dan
 
My guys are over the choose head location, now that most of the opponents wear helmets. They go for the arms instead - less HP. I like the idea of making it a crit only -as was brought up on another thread regarding ranged attacks and cover.

hmm....
 
Use general hit points for most foes?
That way the only thing choose location does is change how many AP the foe have. IE. It makes choosing the head actually worse than other locations.

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And apart from that I really don't get the fuss about choose location: Head, (as long as it isn't coupled with stun location which can be fight-ending).
The difference between hitting somebody in the head and in the chest is 2 hit points. And I mean the result of reducing the location by that amount of damage is identical.
An arm even has 1 hit point less than the head, meaning only 5 points of damage is needed to cause a wound, if you impale instead the higher average damage will mean you more often than not will cause you opponent to lose 1d3 CA, and lose the use of his arm. And I mean, who's gonna keep figthing without one arm when he's offered a choice?

I plainly suggest to only use choose location if there is a vast difference of AP, if the opponent has cover (in which case it's essential), or if the opponent is already severely damaged in one location. (since reducing a location to a Major wound is pretty much the same as killing him).

Just have your own mooks use the more useful CMs (your players will soon catch on), here's the rundown of when they are useful:
Bash Opponent - The stable of the longer reach man, forcing your opponent back means he'll have to close again, giving you options to either keep him at a distance where he can't attack you, or giving you options to strike him again and keep bashing him away. Bash is better than changing range when you want your opponent to further his distance from you, since it has the added possibility of him tripping over something or someone.
Change Range - If the opponent is too big to be bashed, you are probably screwed at long ranges, due to their usually high reach, changing to close ranges makes the opponent unable to defend themselves, but beware, high SIZ means high damage, so get ready to take a beating. I prefer changing to close range when I have superior armour (usually through shapechanging or a shield spell, but I guess plate would work as well).
Disarm - Disarming an opponent requires him to pick up his weapon from the ground, and can be made more easy with a two-handed weapon. If you opponent has no weapon, he's got a hard time fighting and this forces him to waste a few CAs to get his weapon back. CAs are the most important thing in combat so this is a supergood use. It's best used against enemies with low skill and only one weapon, or when you make a good roll to hit. Note that this ability can be used defensively, which is a huge boon, often turning an otherwise useless shield CA (if playing with the off-hand action optional rule) into an advantage you get in your opponents turn. Also note that the take weapon CM is strictly superior, but dangerous, since it requires you to be unarmed, and thus you can risk taking damage if you opponent succeeds his attack roll, a good unarmed skill (120+) or your opponent having a small weapon would still make this a viable tactic though.
Trip Opponent - Tripping does a bunch of things, first, it forces the opponent to waste time on getting back up, secondly, it allows you to change the distance. Tripping is opposed by evade, which means big and clumsy opponents will suffer to it often. Being tripped does not only give you an all your allies +20% to attack the target, it also gives the target -20% on all checks to defend, meaning it is the most effective "debuff" out there.
Grip - Unarmed maneuver that is offensive, yet does the same thing as pin weapon, but requires your opponent to use unarmed skill to get his weapon back. If you have a good unarmed skill this is golden.
Sunder - Essential for taking big mooks, sunder some armour, and everybody follows up with choosing that location, piling damage on the same location this way is probably the best use of the choose location CM, and the simplest way to taking down big baddies like dragons or their ilk.
Bleed - Bleed is good if you have the luxury of time on your side, if your enemies are many but can't all engage you at the same time, or if he's normally heavy armoured, bleed can make him go down to fatigue as you dance around and away from him. Using bleed properly requires you to have good move an evade so you don't need to face enemies that are bleeding and can get away from them.
Impale - Since you lose your weapon. Impale is mostly for ranged weapons that make good use of it with their big size and no real downside on it. Using it in close combat is very dangerous, since it costs you multiple CAs to get your weapon back. This should rarely be attempted without a back-up weapon and not if there is still an the same amount of combatants on both sides.
Stun Location: Stun location is a great way to take a combatant out of the combat early, if you hit anything but an arm, the opposition is basically out on a failed resilience roll. If you hit an arm, his usefulness is reduced.

The critical effects give themselves away, when your opponent has better armour than your average damage, penetrate armour is the thing you want, when he has low armour, maximise damage is the thing you need.
 
Greg Smith said:
I have altered chose location to allowing the attacker to alter the location dice roll by +/-5. If it is a critical, they can select the location as normal.
Do they pick the CM before rolling the location dice? Or do you let them roll the location, then decide whether it's worth picking Choose Location?
 
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