Claw and Bite

[Lord Twig]

What's the point?

If I understand things correctly it takes one combat action for a creature to attack with a natural weapon. It doesn't matter what weapon they attack with, it is one combat action. So in the previous versions if you were attacked by a lion it was able to claw you twice and bite once, which was a huge advantage over your one attack with your sword. Now the lion has to decide if it is going to claw or bite and it has just as many actions as a typical adventurer.

I just seems to me that there should be some advantage to having multiple natural weapons.

 

[Rurik]

And Strike Rank Modifier is based on INT, which penalizes animals more. That Lion, with its' high DEX, still only has an SRM of +10, lower than the average human range of 11-12.

The poor old Brown Bear will has an SRM of +7 (!) and only 2 CA's. Pretty tame compared to previous editions (though the +1d10 db still hurts).

I think I am going to use straight DEX for SRM for non-sentient monsters.

 

[Rurik]

In addition to using DEX as SRM for animals, I think I will give 1 Bonus CA per additional attack, similar to off hand weapons. For example, Bears would get there 2 CA's to use to attack normally, presumably with Bite (their best attack) and 1 additional CA per claw to use for claw attacks.

These bonus attacks would not be at any penalty to skill. I'll have to try this out, but I think it could give some of the advantage back to beasts.

 

[King Amenjar]

What's the point?

If I understand things correctly it takes one combat action for a creature to attack with a natural weapon. It doesn't matter what weapon they attack with, it is one combat action. So in the previous versions if you were attacked by a lion it was able to claw you twice and bite once, which was a huge advantage over your one attack with your sword. Now the lion has to decide if it is going to claw or bite and it has just as many actions as a typical adventurer.

I just seems to me that there should be some advantage to having multiple natural weapons.

Treat the lion as having a "shield" and give it an extra combat action.

 

[atgxtg]

Treat the lion as having a "shield" and give it an extra combat action.

A MRQ game sessnin:
"Whadaya mean the Lion parried?!?"

:wink:

 

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

I would certainly expect any clawed animal to get an extra off-hand free attack. No precise shots to bypass armour though

Giving a creature with claw and bite an extra attack for the additional 'weapon' sounds right to me. It also works for dragon's tails, manticore sting etc.

Sounds like a matter to ask for Mongoose clarification on.

I'm not as certain about the SR changes. Animals attacking humans don't always get the drop - they are often reluctant to attack. If there's an intentional attack it's usually with surprise at which point your higher SR may get you a reaction dodge or parry.

Regards

 

[simonh]

Just to clarify, in RQ3 creatures such as lions only got the 'free' extra bite attack if both thier claw attacks were hits. This would work just as well in MRQ - 2 successful claw attacks during the round yielding an additional free bite attack. However with creatures in MRQ often getting 3 normal attacks a round they'll be much more likely to get that extra attack than under RQ3.

That's not necesserily a bad thing.

 

[atgxtg]

Just to clarify, in RQ3 creatures such as lions only got the 'free' extra bite attack if both thier claw attacks were hits. This would work just as well in MRQ - 2 successful claw attacks during the round yielding an additional free bite attack. However with creatures in MRQ often getting 3 normal attacks a round they'll be much more likely to get that extra attack than under RQ3.

That's not necesserily a bad thing.

Yeah, but most creatures in RQ2 and RQ3 had an extra attack to begin with by having two claw attacks or claw & bite.

 

[Halfbat]

They did.

I think most animals are always wielding an off-hand weapon (if they have two possible attacks) so get an extra CA (attack) in a round anyway. As to letting have yet another... I'll have to try.

 

[B_Steele]

I think most animals are always wielding an off-hand weapon (if they have two possible attacks) so get an extra CA (attack) in a round anyway

That's how I've been running/writing it.

-Bry

 

[Lorgryt]

What's the point?

So in the previous versions if you were attacked by a lion it was able to claw you twice and bite once, which was a huge advantage over your one attack with your sword.

With the CA the lion attacks 3 times in a round, over the Bite and 2 claw attacks of the old system. No, wait... that is 3 now and 3 then. Isn't that the same?

The low SR is an issue, but not a massive issue. An easy fix would be to add 6 to the total for predators, and leave herbivores alone but allow them an advantage to dodge and avoiding surprise. But even this seems not to be much of an issue for the games I have run. Lions are still killers.

 

[Nagisawa]

Treat the lion as having a "shield" and give it an extra combat action.

A MRQ game sessnin:
"Whadaya mean the Lion parried?!?"

:wink:

Sounds like WoW.

"Okay, let me get this straight, the wolf parried my SWORD? Then he shield BLOCKED the next blow? WTF???"

 

[AKAramis]

Ever fought a dangerous animal? They DO parry, intentional or not.

Try it with a playful but non-biter dog... the old grab the muzzle and blow.. in short order the dog will bat at the hand as it reaches.

 

[gamesmeister]

What's the point?

So in the previous versions if you were attacked by a lion it was able to claw you twice and bite once, which was a huge advantage over your one attack with your sword.

With the CA the lion attacks 3 times in a round, over the Bite and 2 claw attacks of the old system. No, wait... that is 3 now and 3 then. Isn't that the same?

No, it isn't.

Previously, the lion attacked 3 times, and you the player attacked once. Under the new rules, the lion's attacks haven't changed, but you now attack 3 times as often.

To a certain extent that may be balanced by a lion's high damage bonus. However, what Mongoose haven't explained is why I would ever use Claw (Dmg 1D6) instead of Bite (Dmg 1D8). Under current rules I can just bite three times.

Yeah, I know it's not a huge deal, but it's just another example of where the new rule changes were not playtested properly :x

 

[Lord Twig]

gamesmeister picked up my point exactly.

Allowing the lion to have an extra attack for an off-hand weapon is a good idea, too bad it is not actually in the rulebook. I guess you can infer it using some fuzzy logic, but it is a bit of a stretch to say that was what was intended all along.

I see that for some creatures have a better chance to hit with some natural weapons and better damage with others, but it is pretty arbitrary. Wouldn't they be most skilled in using their most damaging attack? And why would a wolf ever use it's claw attack? It has less chance to hit and does less damage.

Anyway, once again I have a house rule to fix it. But at this point I have just about re-written every single section of the SRD. Since it is totally open-source, I may go ahead and post it up when I have it finished.

I still like the game and am ordering more books, but I have changed my outlook of MRQ to that of a RPG kit rather than a ready-to-run game. It is something for me to take the pieces and put together a finished game with.

 

[Michael Hopcroft]

Question: Shouldn't a sufficiently intelligent creature (of human-level or above INT) be able to make Precise Attacks with their natural weapons (as they are capable of knowing the weak points of a foe as opposed simply flailing in self-defense or hitting whatever presents itself?

 

[Arkat]

Ever fought a dangerous animal? They DO parry, intentional or not.

Try it with a playful but non-biter dog... the old grab the muzzle and blow.. in short order the dog will bat at the hand as it reaches.

Yup you could give em parries and if they miss the parry to a successful attack then whatever limb they parried with should get hit.

Ahh the good ol' rules when Broo's would head butt you and miss and you'd whack em in the noggin with the Broadsword you were parrying with...