Charging - very confused

[Maedhros]

I'm about five sessions into a MRQII/Legend campaign. Last night all five of us ended up scratching our heads over the Charging rules.

Under "Full Round Manoeuvres" it says the following:

Charging: The Adventurer moves a total of 3x his normal Movement and attacks along the way. During the round, all the Adventurer's Combat Actions but one must be spent on Move, but in each action he moves up to 2x his normal Movement.

Example: Tor Magnus (3 CA) is 20m away from Viasmix, and wishes to charge him. According to the rule, he spends 2 CA on Move and presumably 1 CA to attack "along the way." So, for his first CA he moves 16m, his second he moves 4m, then uses his final CA to attack.

Questions we had:

1. What happens if Viamix (or some other foes) engage Tor Magnus after he spends his first CA but before he completes his Charge? He would then be engaged and could not move without Changing Distance to disengage, which would use up his last CA and render the Charge ineffective.

2. Is it even possible to spend CA to react to things (parry, evade, etc.) when making a "Full Round Action" like a Charge, since all of one's CA are declared at the start of the round?

3. What happens if, after 1 CA, Viasmix backs up 5m and thus out of Charge range? Seems a simple way to counter a Charge.

4. What if Viasmix is only 10m away? Does Tor Magnus Charge 10m (1 CA) and attack, then continue moving another 14 m with his other CA spent on Move? Does attacking cost another CA on top of those spent on Move?

5. Is there functionally any difference between a Charge made by a creature with 1 CA vs. creatures with 2 CA or 3 CA?

6. We read the Charge rules to mean that the target can either spend 1 CA to Evade out of the way, or 1 CA to attack the Charger as he's coming in. Target cannot Parry. Is this correct?

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I'm about five sessions into a MRQII/Legend campaign. Last night all five of us ended up scratching our heads over the Charging rules.

There is a long thread somewhere on the forum that discusses charging in MRQII...
I think they are best understood as rules governing what happens when a mounted warrior gallops past his target striking on the way, rather than a foot warrior charging into combat with a foe, ending up toe to toe with him.

Example: Tor Magnus (3 CA) is 20m away from Viasmix, and wishes to charge him. According to the rule, he spends 2 CA on Move and presumably 1 CA to attack "along the way." So, for his first CA he moves 16m, his second he moves 4m, then uses his final CA to attack.

Technically he moves "up to" 2x movement each round, he could move 4m then 16, or 10 and 10. It's probably best to say movement is evenly divided between available actions to prevent any "gaming" of ranges

1. What happens if Viamix (or some other foes) engage Tor Magnus after he spends his first CA but before he completes his Charge? He would then be engaged and could not move without Changing Distance to disengage, which would use up his last CA and render the Charge ineffective.

Disrupting an enemies charge is a very good tactic! Viamix would (presumably) have to advance to engage him before he completed the charge - so probably a counter-charge - both parties are subject to the benefits (and penalties) of charging. Also consider that Tor Magnus might be able to Charge past the attacker (If his move is 8m the rules allow him to charge 24m, attacking Viamix at 20m and continuing 4m past him. If Viamix advances 4m, he can certainly attack him at 16m and continue 8m past him just as easily...)

2. Is it even possible to spend CA to react to things (parry, evade, etc.) when making a "Full Round Action" like a Charge, since all of one's CA are declared at the start of the round?

probably not - If you are going to divert time/attention to dealing with other actions, you wont be able to concentrate on the charge...

3. What happens if, after 1 CA, Viasmix backs up 5m and thus out of Charge range? Seems a simple way to counter a Charge.

Yes - Charging someone at the limit of your movement when they can safely withdraw out of range is a poor tactic - especially if they can additionally use missile fire to attack you while doing so. Unfortunately "Battle maps" marked out in convenient squares and standard movement rates make this an easier counter in games than it would be IRL. (If I were to charge across a field towards you waving a sword, would you feel confident that you could walk backwards just far enough to stop me reaching you...)

4. What if Viasmix is only 10m away? Does Tor Magnus Charge 10m (1 CA) and attack, then continue moving another 14 m with his 0other CA spent on Move? Does attacking cost another CA on top of those spent on Move?

The timing rules are a bit tricky. After 3 CA he will should be 24m away, and have attacked once. In this case, since he can't attack in the first or last CA, his attack must come on his second Action. - If he had 4 CA, it would be more problematic to decide if he attacked on his second or third action...
The attack uses the one CA in the round that is not used to move.

5. Is there functionally any difference between a Charge made by a creature with 1 CA vs. creatures with 2 CA or 3 CA?

Probably not. Although you might possibly rule that a creature with 1CA is to slow to Charge

6. We read the Charge rules to mean that the target can either spend 1 CA to Evade out of the way, or 1 CA to attack the Charger as he's coming in. Target cannot Parry. Is this correct?

IIRC that is the intention of the rule. Although there are circumstances where it makes sense, It would probably be better handled by treating a weapon used in a charge as being (at least) one size larger for the purpose of parrying. I mean you could try and parry the knights lance with your buckler when his war-horse is charging you, but I'm not sure the results would be pretty. On the other hand, when the native warrior runs at you swinging his club around his head, your large shield may well be your best defence.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Found the previous threads
http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=46847
and http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=47010

 

[Redcrow]

IMO I don't think anyone really knows how the charge rules work. It didn't really work too well as originally written in MRQ2 and it doesn't really work too well as rewritten in Legend.

Sure, you might be able to get it to work in a few specific limited situations, but as soon as you start adding what-ifs it breaks down rather quickly. Part of the problem is the rather abstract and nebulous nature of Combat Actions which doesn't always mesh well with the much more strict measure of movement over time. Just IMHO of course.

 

[danskmacabre]

I sort of use my own version of charge.
For mounted combat, I use Charge as written more or less.

Generally for charging by foot it's not a full round action for the charger or receiver of the charge.
The charger can parry OTW if intercepted.

I sort of play it by ear based on the individual circumstances. Ignoring RAW generally works well for charging and in play doesn't seem under or overpowered. to me.

 

[Maedhros]

Thanks to everyone for responding. I'll discuss this with my group, and we'll probably end up house-ruling it.

 

[Maedhros]

I just read the earlier thread:

http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=46847
and http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=47010

Something was mentioned that wasn't directly addressed:

Unless the charging creature willingly stops or is forcibly stopped dead, the charge only allows a single Combat Action for the Attacker and the Defender during that round.

A Charge strips the Defender of actions?

 

[danskmacabre]

A Charge strips the Defender of actions?

Yes, RAW this is correct, however in play it doesn't really work very well and causes all sorts of complications, I ignore that rule and generally it only takes 1 CA to charge or react against a charge.

 

[Lemnoc]

in play it doesn't really work very well and causes all sorts of complications, I ignore that rule and generally it only takes 1 CA to charge or react against a charge.

For sure, it seems odd that a certain attack would deprive the defender of options. At most I might assign 2 CAs to a full defense against a Charge, as per the rules on Readying (ready, brace), or suffer the effects of a Knockback.

I also think this makes sense inre parrying, and is entirely within the spirit and mechanic of the RAW:

It would probably be better handled by treating a weapon used in a charge as being (at least) one size larger for the purpose of parrying. I mean you could try and parry the knights lance with your buckler when his war-horse is charging you, but I'm not sure the results would be pretty. On the other hand, when the native warrior runs at you swinging his club around his head, your large shield may well be your best defence.

EDIT: I might add to this additional level modifiers based on the SIZ of the charging creature, so that parrying a charging elephant with a dagger is mechanically the very foolhardy gesture it seems.

 

[Maedhros]

Here's what one of my players and I came up with as a first attempt:

1. Must have a straight, unobstructed path to the target.
2. The Charging creature may move up to 16m to engage the target. Any movement used in prior Combat Actions is subtracted from this total. The target must be at least 4m away.
3. All rules describing the effects of a Charge remain in play.
4. Charge attacks may be Parried if the target Stands Fast.
5. A Charging creature may not Evade or Parry
6. A Charge action costs 2 CA and is resolved in one SR.

This seems to be a reasonable way to handle it.

Allowing a defender to Parry makes sense to us - the best defense for a Charging lance is to Parry with a shield, not to dive off one's horse. Also, by allowing a Parry, the defender can follow up with an Attack (which is not possible if he Evades). This makes Charging a bit riskier after-the-fact.

By resolving the Charge in one SR we avoid the complications of other creatures interceding.