Character creation - problems

[nats]

Anyone experienced this particular problem with character creation?:-

In High Guard and Merc it says that you can join a career by either the qualification roll or by using the prior service validation. This prior service idea seems to suggest that as long as you meet the criteria you can join the service without doing a qualification throw and also could swap around willy nilly between services. For example in High Guard most of the initial service careers have prior service requirements of one term which means once you have one term of service you could swap around as much as you want without ever testing for qualification. Plus you could become a legendary commander with only a few terms of experience and never throw for qualification.

However several services have minimal rank requirements and it says that if you dont meet the rank you automatically get promoted so you could for example swap into that service (say Command) after spending three terms as crew and automatically get promoted to a higher officer which doesnt seem right.

I would prefer to see this prior service as a requirement rather than an alternative qualification route ie to be able to throw for Navy Command you MUST have completed three terms before you even consider throwing to join. However that would then make it extremely difficult to get into for example High Command - you would require at least six terms to qualify for the throw but you also would get a -2 dm for being 42 or over ( meaning you would have at exactly six terms) so you automatically would get a DM of -2 and have to throw 12+ to qualify using only you intelligence as a positive DM - surely that would make it almost impossible to ever join. So I dont see that as being quite right either.

Also from the rules if you throw and fail to qualify you would be chucked out and have to rely on draft or be a drifter (or in case of High Guard join a lower class navy) so penalising you for trying for a better service.

I assume you should be able to throw for another serice qualification without risking getting chucked out of you present service, (and that draft and drifters are meant only to be used for your first ever employment throw) but this could mean you could throw for qualification in any service as much as you want per term. Unless you are limited to throwing for qualification in another serivce only once per term - but it doesnt say anything about this in the rules. It aslso doesnt say anything about not being able to throw for qualification in a service more than once so you could effectively throw until you get in there.

This all seems really mucked up - the original classic traveller was fine in this respect. Mongoose seem to have really messed up all the rules for this stuff. Anyone clarify how this is all meant to be done?

 

[rust]

However that would then make it extremely difficult to get into for example High Command ...

Well, it should be extremely difficult to get into High Command, in the real
world an officer's chances to get this kind of position are much worse than
a 12+. :wink:

 

[CosmicGamer]

However that would then make it extremely difficult to get into for example High Command ...

Well, it should be extremely difficult to get into High Command, in the real
world an officer's chances to get this kind of position are much worse than
a 12+. :wink:

First, the odds of rolling a 12 is not as hard as one might think. I believe it is around 1 in 36 with an Int DM of 0? With a +1 Int DM 1 in 12?

I guess it depends on how much realism/simulation you want in chargen vs playability/the ability for players to generate the desired character.

As in most cases, mongoose will often try to find a middle ground which unfortunately often causes people on both sides to be discontent.

 

[nats]

I think you both have misunderstood my point that to get into high Command at 42 you get a -2 DM for your age plus any INT DM as a positive DM so unless your intelligence is C or higher you dont stand ANY chance of getting in at all.

But this is just one of the rules I was questioning. I just cannot fathom out how the High Guard and Merc char generation works at all with the Qual throw/Previous Service and just wanted some clarification on how others deal with this - ie do you use the Qual throw all the time whenever you change career or do you allow the 'Previous Service' to get into any career free of a Qual Throw. Or do you as I suggested use the 'Prev Service' as a 'requirement' for the service instead of an alternative enlistment method, which I think was how it worked with Classic Traveller.

My preference would be to do it this way using 'Previous Service' as a 'requirement' for you to be able to try to transfer to another branch, but to slightly tone down the impossible dice throws for things like those for High Command that would result. Using character generation rules this way for High Guard would then mean you would have to start the Navy in Crew for your first term, then you are free to choose which basic service to enter (as they all require 1 term previous service), and then a few terms later you can try for Command, Intelligence or High Command.

For Merc, using these rules you would have to start in Warmonger, the only merc career without 'Previous Service' requirements (or transfer from another mid-army career), and then only after a term in Warmonger you could transfer to another service.

I would say that it would be best to allow only one throw for a transfer each term and if you fail the throw you have to stay in your present career service. Thats the way I would see these rules playing out. But as I have said the present throws for High Command would be impossible under these rules if not toned down. I believe Classic Travleller treated all this under the 'Transfer' rule didnt it? Its something Mongoose have missed out entirely from their rules set it seems which is why all this is completely baffling (if I didnt know Classic Traveller already).

The above is the only way to play to make sense of the ranks system as well where if you try to transfer with a lower rank than is required for the service you get a minus DM. But then if you make the transfer you automatically get promoted to the starting rank.

That all makes sense to me? Now just what to change the High Command throw to? I suppose for the higher level services such as High Command, Intelligence, Naval Engineering and Command it mankes no sense for you to be penalised if you are over 42 - as most character to transfer into these ranks would be 42 or over anyway. Perhaps then the easiest way to deal with the higher ranks where several previous terms are required would be to just do away with the -2 negative qualification DM for age? That would make sense to me. That would make High Command enlistment a 12+ qualification throw if you have average intelligence, you would require at least six previous term's service in the Imperial Navy to even try to enlist, and your intelligence DM would make the throw slightly easier. And any non Navy careers would penalise against you. That would definitely seem to make sense to me. And if you tried to enlist at a lower rank than 06 you would also get negative DMs to the throw. Perfect.

 

[rust]

In my settings the character has to meet the Previous Service require-
ments to get the permission for the Qualification roll.

Mercenary covers mercenaries, not normal soldiers, and a mercenary
unit would hardly ever accept a new member who did not serve in the
regular forces. Therefore in my setting a character who wants to beco-
me a merc has to serve at least one term in the core rules career as a
soldier.

I still have no problem at all with the difficulty to get a post with the High
Command. After looking at the numbers, in the real world the chance to
be appointed to High Command is less than 0.1 %.
However, if it has to be someone in High Command for you, you can al-
ways decide that the character made it and forget about the dice.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Also from the rules if you throw and fail to qualify you would be chucked out and have to rely on draft or be a drifter (or in case of High Guard join a lower class navy) so penalising you for trying for a better service.

I assume you should be able to throw for another serice qualification without risking getting chucked out of you present service, (and that draft and drifters are meant only to be used for your first ever employment throw) but this could mean you could throw for qualification in any service as much as you want per term. Unless you are limited to throwing for qualification in another serivce only once per term - but it doesnt say anything about this in the rules.

It doesn't say anything about specifically limiting to one qual roll because there are results when the roll succeeds and there are results when it fails. I think it is clear that the intent is one qual roll per term.

While it's certainly possible to modify the rules, you can see here how changing one thing (not being forced into draft/drifter ie no consequences for a failed attempt to qualify) is starting to causes a ripple effect.

If you take the simulation view, you might consider that the character is changing careers and not specialties within a career. To peruse a new career, the rule is that the character must leave the current one. Perhaps it is as simple as the characters current career not giving them the time and ability to go jumping around the system on interviews. You want to do that, the character has to leave their current career.

Of course there is also the situation where the rules state the character is not allowed to voluntarily go back to the same career in most cases. Again, not too realistic. But hay, who was it that decided this career was so horrid that they would leave it to pursue other possibilities? If the character is not committed to this career, why would we want them back? The character would probably just try to leave again at the first opportunity. You want out, stay out! Don't let the door hit you where.... I can also understand why this is here for certain playability issues.

I'm not a big fan of completely changing a rule but I think things can often be 'tweaked' or additional rules can supplement. For instance, prior service validation which now makes changing career possible without needing a qualifying roll and it's consequences.

How about an additional rule something like this:

Along with changing careers via Qualification or service validation, you have an Application rule.

Characters can apply for a new career while still in a career. They must

I would prefer to see this prior service as a requirement rather than an alternative qualification route

meet the prior service requirements and make the Application acceptance roll.

The character can stay in their current career if the application is not accepted or even if the character changes their mind and turns down the acceptance. (maybe you got that commission you've been wanting)

You have the option, if the application is accepted, to notify superiors and tender your resignation effective at the end of this term so that the character can muster out and start their new career.

Possible additional rules for Applications
1) Applying for a career the character has already been in
- Perhaps allow applying for a career that the character has already been in.
- Perhaps this is only allowed if the character left voluntarily.
- Perhaps you can ignore the -DM for previous careers.
2) The acceptance roll
- Perhaps this is the same value as the qualification roll, perhaps it is different. (what do you think?)
- Perhaps there is a negative DM since the character is not applying in person.
- Perhaps there is a positive DM if the character exceeds the prior service requirements
3) Applying to multiple careers in one term
- Perhaps limit it to one application allowed with no penalties.
- Perhaps the character spends their time researching careers and working on applications so they miss out on promotion opportunities but get to file an additional application. Allow an additional application but no promotion roll is made or their is a negative DM.
- Perhaps the character spends their time researching careers and working on applications so they don't concentrate on their career and fail to gain any new skill. Allow additional applications but no skill roll is made for this term. (I'm thinking two additional applications for this so that there will be a maximum of 4 applications possible if you include the 'free' one and the one with the promotion penalty. This makes it one application per year.)
4) Application and Qualification
- Perhaps the character can still leave their old career at the end of their term and try to qualify for a new career they have already applied for.
- Perhaps if an application has been reviewed and denied, you are less likely to get another interview and there will be a negative DM when trying to qualify for the same career.
5) Applying for the same career more than once
- Perhaps you can apply for the same career only once per term
- or Perhaps you can apply for the same career more than once per term (should there possibly be a DM)
6) Requirements
- Perhaps you are not required to meet the prior service requirements but there is a DM associated with meeting or not meeting them.
- Perhaps you write up your own set of application requirements which must be met or the application is not even reviewed or they might provide DMs to acceptance. For example: certain characteristics, skills required, must be an officer, certain rank , number of terms in a specific prior career, character age...

 

[BP]

.. the odds of rolling a 12 is not as hard as one might think. I believe it is around 1 in 36 with an Int DM of 0? With a +1 Int DM 1 in 12?

You believe right!

For those who want to know:

• The odds are the number of combinations for a desired number divided by the total combinations possible (36 for 2d6).
  
  Number of combinations for 6 and under are desired number minus 1 - so 5 chances of rolling a 6; for over 6, its 13 minus the number - so 2 chances to roll an 11.
  
  For greater than a number, like 11+, just add the individual number of combinations together - i.e. 11+ is 1 chance for 12 and 2 chances for 11, thus a total of 3 chances in 36.

 

[nats]

I disagree that this -2 DM for age of 42 for these High Level Services sounds very realistic especially the High Command.

You cannot get into High Command unless you are 42 and you get a -2 DM if you are 42 or older - that just doesnt make any sense to me.

I agree that it should be difficult - but it would be impossible unless you had an intelligence DM of +2 or more and a rank of at least O6 - that is just a bit too crazy for me.

 

[nats]

While it's certainly possible to modify the rules, you can see here how changing one thing (not being forced into draft/drifter ie no consequences for a failed attempt to qualify) is starting to causes a ripple effect.

Not at all, Classic Traveller saw changing services within the Navy as a 'transfer' not a change of career. Therefore there was no risk of being chucked out if you failed. I think this is the right way to look at it. You should be able to try to change service or even assignment within the one Career but if you fail you should not be chucked out but allowed to continue in the present assignment.

I dont see how the Previous Service terms rule is sensible at all unless its a requirement. It means you could apply to High Command after six terms in the Imperial Navy and automatically get straight to being a Legendary Captain. Now thats just not right.

 

[BP]

...
You cannot get into High Command unless you are 42 and you get a -2 DM if you are 42 or older - that just doesnt make any sense to me.

It also doesn't appear in the rules (Command and other careers give -2 DM for age over 42, but High Command does not)

Suggest you double check the rules (pg 35) - if it states this, then perhaps you have a flawed printing (MGP replaces the original edition of HG)...

...I agree that it should be difficult - but it would be impossible unless you had an intelligence DM of +2 or more and a rank of at least O6 - that is just a bit too crazy for me.

Even if the above rule did apply, you left out the +1 DMs for Leadership 3+ and Tactics(Naval) 3+. Thus, it is not, at all 'impossible'.

Also, one can increase Int over the prior minimum 6 terms served.

There are flaws in the rules - there always are - and, it is easy to 'read' a rule that isn't there (guilty) - but it is also easy to miss the subtleties that make them work as well...

 

[rust]

Even if the above rule did apply, you left out the +1 DMs for Leadership 3+ and Tactics(Naval) 3+. Thus, it is not, at all 'impossible'.

Also, one can increase Int over the prior minimum 6 terms served.

And while we are at it, there are also the Medal Benefits. :wink:

 

[DeadMike]

I would prefer

Well, if you are the GM and it is YTU. What you prefer is what happens. Just notify your players before character generation. If you are a player, just talk it out with your GM.

 

[GamerDude]

Even if the above rule did apply, you left out the +1 DMs for Leadership 3+ and Tactics(Naval) 3+. Thus, it is not, at all 'impossible'.

Also, one can increase Int over the prior minimum 6 terms served.

And while we are at it, there are also the Medal Benefits. :wink:

Wait! Medical? What abotu dental?

 

[Treebore]

I only follow the rules when they make sense, otherwise I allow whatever I am willing to allow.

Plus I only require rolls for those players I have who cannot come up with a plausible story as to how the career change happened. If I can buy their story, the change occurred. Otherwise, they roll.

Not how the rules say to do it, but I am always a bit of "the rules are only guidelines" type of gamer. Something I have always agreed with EGG about. The rules, only hand in hand with intelligent thought and reason, are my guide, not my master.

I know that isn't germaine to the OP, but maybe sitting back, taking a deep breathe, and remembering that rules are only guidelines might be helpful.

 

[rust]

Wait! Medical? What abotu dental?

... :shock:

 

[AndrewW]

Even if the above rule did apply, you left out the +1 DMs for Leadership 3+ and Tactics(Naval) 3+. Thus, it is not, at all 'impossible'.

Also, one can increase Int over the prior minimum 6 terms served.

And while we are at it, there are also the Medal Benefits. :wink:

Wait! Medical? What abotu dental?

Any vision plan? Might be useful after all that staring out into empty space, or eyes being dazzled by all those beam weapons firing.

 

[AndrewW]

...
You cannot get into High Command unless you are 42 and you get a -2 DM if you are 42 or older - that just doesnt make any sense to me.

It also doesn't appear in the rules (Command and other careers give -2 DM for age over 42, but High Command does not)

Suggest you double check the rules (pg 35) - if it states this, then perhaps you have a flawed printing (MGP replaces the original edition of HG)...

My original printing of High Guard (with the Mercenary table of contents) has: "If you are aged 42 or more -2 DM" for High Command in it. (Was one of the things I mentioned for the errata).

 

[BP]

Exactly, and it sounds like nats has that - hence his main issue.

nats - you might want to see this thread - I believe Matt Sprange said this offer is indefinite if you are interested (just PM him).

 

[BP]

...And while we are at it, there are also the Medal Benefits. :wink:

Hah! You caught me, I never actually read the High Guard char gen stuffs - I was only interested in the ship stuffs!

Actually looking at this... the Long Service Medal is automatic after five or more (huh? does that mean multiple times?) terms. So by definition, High Command Qualifier is actually only 11+ (since all applicants must have 6 terms min in Navy so automatic +1 - at least - unless there is some way to lose these benefits).

There are probably events also that would make qualification easier.

(Personally, I would have made the min. based on Naval rank.)

 

[darktalon]

I have a later printing High Guard (with the right table of contents) that still has the -2 for age 42+ for High Command. Am I right in assuming that I should disregard it?