Character advancement???

[atpollard]

While perhaps a bit unorthadox, I assume that a character gains +1 level in every skill he posseses AFTER 4 years of adventuring, but (based on personal gaming experience) he will either strike it rich and retire from adventuring (thus no skill improvements) or die spectacularly (no skill improvements) or the game will fold (no skill improvements) before the 4 years pass. Under this system, I need not worry about skill advancement or any other similar distraction and can focus completely on the enjoyment of just playing the character.

It works for me.

 

[rust]

In our current setting we treat a skill level of 2 as the equivalent of a
master degree and a skill level of 3 as the equivalent of a doctorate.
Therefore a character can learn a new level 0 skill and train it up to
level 1 during normal play, but to raise it to level 2 or above he has
to return to training camp, university or another suitable institution, or
has to spend a corresponding amount of time for his studies - he is ba-
sically out of the game for a couple of years, and can at best make a
few guest appearances in the campaign.

 

[Techno-Guru]

Considering my friend and I had problems with the characters coming out a little underpowered (in our opinion,) I better write all this down...
Thanks in advance.

 

[BP]

...die spectacularly (no skill improvements)...

Spectacular Death-1

The MgT method [Core pg 59] of penalizing learning based on total skill levels does seems backwards. Inter-disciplinary knowledge generally translates to accelerated learning - and enhanced gains from experience.

More importantly the MgT method is way too generous (especially when the character lacks skill levels). In the example of the Pilot-2 with one other skill at 1 , one could say Medic-2 instead and it would take 6 weeks for Medic-3, while Medic-4 would take just 2 more months. That doesn't jive with the skill level info from pg 6 & 51 - where Medic-2 is a doctor and Medic-4 is a famous surgeon or specialist. Nor does it fit well with the average 2-4 skills per 4-year term in a career.

• So an otherwise unskilled (poor single term character) is now a famous surgeon in his early twenties. Give him a few more months and he'll best Dr. McCoy!
  
  And for just 9 more months of training he can also be Engineer-4 and look out Scotty!

I sure hope I've misunderstood the MgT 'Learning New Skills' rules - otherwise the only reason to stay in a career is to gain Zero level skills, social standing, ship shares and small amounts of coin...


I'm a reasonable guy. But, I've just experienced some very unreasonable things. - Jack Burton

 

[Paladin]

One of the problems I have with trying to make Traveller match "Real Life" is that the model they use for skills changes from skill to skill.

And two of the problems I have with trying to make Traveller match "Real Life" is 1) it can't and 2) I don't want Real Life intruding on my fun time.

:lol:

I agree.

Daniel

Me three.

 

[Paladin]

I've added houserules for advancement to slow the progress down. It's a different form of experience points.

• Training allows 1 pt per week in a specific skill
• Rolling a natural 2 or 12 on a skill/attribute check during the game earns a point for that skill.
• Each session players can earn 1-4 based on roleplaying, creativity, etc. These points may be allocated freely and reflect personal research/training/learning.

Skills can be raised in the following manner:

• Unskilled to -2 = 10 pts
• -2 to -1 = 10 pts
• -1 to 0 = 10 pts
• after that point it is the targetted Skill Level * 10. (e.g. Going from a 2 to 3 requires 30 pts)

Raising Attributes requires Target level * 20. (e.g. going from a 9 to 10 = 200 pts)

Tick marks or #s are placed near the skills on the sheet to keep track of things.
Unallocated points earned at the end of a session can be used to modify rolls during the game.
1 pt for a +1 before a roll or 3 pts for a +1 after seeing the result. 5 pts for a full re-roll.

It gives the characters some ability to influence things and to try to do the occassional heroic thing or recover from a disastrous failure. It also slows the skill progression because the skill points get used for other events.

 

[sergeant_x]

That's very close to the system used in Serenity.

 

[Stofsk]

In our current setting we treat a skill level of 2 as the equivalent of a
master degree and a skill level of 3 as the equivalent of a doctorate.
Therefore a character can learn a new level 0 skill and train it up to
level 1 during normal play, but to raise it to level 2 or above he has
to return to training camp, university or another suitable institution, or
has to spend a corresponding amount of time for his studies - he is ba-
sically out of the game for a couple of years, and can at best make a
few guest appearances in the campaign.

The problem with this, rust, is that a lot of the skills aren't remotely comparable with taking a university course. Take for instance, Gun Combat (any). You don't need to learn a Bachelors to get a rank of 1 in it.

Indeed, the training is actually there to put the skill from -4 to 0, 0 is stated as 'you are trained in that skill'. Anything higher than 0 represents experience, not more training. I think any advancement system that gets implemented ought to take that as the focus IMO.

 

[rust]

The problem with this, rust, is that a lot of the skills aren't remotely comparable with taking a university course. Take for instance, Gun Combat (any).

Right, this is why I mentioned the training camp as an option besides the
university. In my view, someone with Gun Combat-2 has some technical
knowledge and some basic tactical knowledge, too, and these are diffi-
cult to learn by experience alone - which is why real world armies use
a series of schools to improve their soldiers' skills instead of relying on
experience alone.

Anything higher than 0 represents experience, not more training. I think any advancement system that gets implemented ought to take that as the focus IMO.

This is true for some skills, but in my view not for most of them. No mat-
ter how much experience a Medic-1 will have, experience alone will not
make him a skilled surgeon.

 

[Stofsk]

The problem with this, rust, is that a lot of the skills aren't remotely comparable with taking a university course. Take for instance, Gun Combat (any).

Right, this is why I mentioned the training camp as an option besides the
university. In my view, someone with Gun Combat-2 has some technical
knowledge and some basic tactical knowledge, too,

Why would he have technical knowledge? Marines learn during basic training how to take apart and put back together a rifle in a minute, that doesn't mean they know how to build one. They probably know how one works, can clean it, maintain it etc, but that would be the limit to it. I would treat Gun 0 as being sufficient for that.

You can learn how to point a gun and shoot, but there's a limit to how far that can take you. Similarly for other skills; nothing beats hands-on experience. Or lets talk about another skill, like Driving. You can learn how to drive and it probably won't take that long, maybe half a dozen lessons or more or less, depending on aptitude. But that will only cover the basics. To actually grow comfortable driving, you need to get behind the wheel and drive. And to do that constantly.

and these are difficult to learn by experience alone - which is why real world armies use a series of schools to improve their soldiers' skills instead of relying on experience alone.

Yes, but once you graduate from school you don't have to keep going back to it to learn more; it's assumed you learn enough to carry you through to your assignment. Training can only take you so far.

Anything higher than 0 represents experience, not more training. I think any advancement system that gets implemented ought to take that as the focus IMO.

This is true for some skills, but in my view not for most of them. No mat-
ter how much experience a Medic-1 will have, experience alone will not
make him a skilled surgeon.

Are you kidding? Doctors - any profession for that matter - command a higher payrate based on their level of experience (which, for real world purposes, is measured in years of service as well as qualfications received from schooling). If you want a surgeon, you go for the one who's the most experienced at the medical condition you're suffering from. If you need a lawyer, you go for the QC (depending on the seriousness of the charge/lawsuit), not a junior barrister.

There's a limit to what you can learn in a classroom.

 

[rust]

If you want a surgeon, you go for the one who's the most experienced at the medical condition you're suffering from. If you need a lawyer, you go for the QC (depending on the seriousness of the charge/lawsuit), not a junior barrister.
There's a limit to what you can learn in a classroom.

Well, I am a nurse (Medic-1, I think) with more than 30 years of experi-
ence on the job, but only an idiot would hand me a scalpel and ask me to
perform surgery on a patient ... :lol:

There is also a limit to what you can learn outside of a classroom. :wink:

 

[Paladin]

That's very close to the system used in Serenity.

It's a hybrid of Mechwarrior and Marvel.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Higher levels of gun combat skill might incude the ability to do your own reloads. Something I hope you learn somewhere safe and not through trial and error experience.

Higher levels of gun combat skill can include knowledge of the effects of things like different atmosphere densities on ballistics. Something you could possibly be taught in a classroom, at a gun range that simulated a variety of atmospheres, or again learn via trial and error experience. Hope your unit doesn't get overrun while they are trying to figure out why shots are off.

You can learn how to point a gun and shoot, but there's a limit to how far that can take you. Similarly for other skills; nothing beats hands-on experience. Or lets talk about another skill, like Driving. You can learn how to drive and it probably won't take that long, maybe half a dozen lessons or more or less, depending on aptitude. But that will only cover the basics. To actually grow comfortable driving, you need to get behind the wheel and drive. And to do that constantly.

Training and schooling can include hands on experience. There are advanced driving schools and there is a difference between getting behind the wheel by ones self and having a highly skilled instructor there. The driving school instructor can have you try maneuvers in a safe environment and give instruction on how to prevent as well as what to do if something happens. Also, higher levels of drive should also cover some additional maintenance and repair knowledge. Often skills can overlap so this doesn't have to be learned as a mechanic skill which is knowing mechanics of all types, not just vehicles.

and these are difficult to learn by experience alone - which is why real world armies use a series of schools to improve their soldiers' skills instead of relying on experience alone.

Yes, but once you graduate from school you don't have to keep going back to it to learn more; it's assumed you learn enough to carry you through to your assignment. Training can only take you so far.

Soldiers, especially as their responsibilities increase, which is normal as soldiers gain experience 'in the field', are assigned additional, more advanced training. For those who have not gained enough 'experience' to advance to the next school, often they have to repeat the same school, or a shorter version is required on a regular basis as refresher training.

Anything higher than 0 represents experience, not more training. I think any advancement system that gets implemented ought to take that as the focus IMO.

This is true for some skills, but in my view not for most of them. No mat-
ter how much experience a Medic-1 will have, experience alone will not
make him a skilled surgeon.

Are you kidding?

I don't think he's kidding. I agree. Even highly skilled professionals read trade magazines, go to conferences, and attend training on currently unknown equipment or procedures. Hopefully doctors don't just experiment on their patients to gain experience.

There's a limit to what you can learn in a classroom.

Most more advanced training is a combination of 'classroom' and 'hands on' training. Of course, 'practice makes perfect' is also true which i think is your point, actual real world experience is often needed before you can go off and just take the next higher level of training. Personally, I believe at all levels, without some form of training (classroom, online, reading trade journals, reading 'papers' written by others in your field, simulators, and so on) it will take considerably longer, and you will be much more apt to errors as you attempt to learn the higher level things through trial and error in real life situations. How long will this trial and ERROR person be able to stay credible within their career field. Eventually they would probably get fired and have trouble finding work.

Jumping to another skill, Athletics(co-ordination), I do believe the majority of Olympic level athletes have coaches that give instruction. Professional football (US) players have coaches that give instruction, determine the proper exercises and practice needed for their players to improve. Players review game film of their opponents, and sit through 'classes' to go over the play book. A new NFL player shouldn't just say "hey, I learned everything I need to know in college so I can just show up when it's game time."

 

[Stofsk]

I don't take issue with anything you said in your post, it does sound reasonable to include advanced training the more experienced you get. I guess my issue stems from a gameplay perspective moreso than anything else. Whatever works best for the game is what I think is valuable.

Having thought about what I really objected to about rust's idea, is that it would effectively take the character the player runs out of the game entirely, which I disagree with. I basically think there are two reasons why a player's character needs to leave the game, and that is either they just took a direct hit from PGMP, and are in several (charred) pieces, or the player is being a douche and has been 'invited' to leave (by having their character suffer a direct hit from a PGMP). Having the character taken out of the picture because he's off to brain camp just strikes me as wrong. But I acknowledge not everyone plays games like I do, and it's been awhile since I've played a game myself.

Note that depending on the type of character you want to play, or how the campaign unfolds, a lot of this sort of debate is academic. For example; you might want to play a highly skilled professional, and have had multiple terms of service during prior history. In those circumstances, in particular if several skills are at a high level, it could be assumed your character has done those advanced training sessions you refer to. Another possibility is the 'in-between-time' between adventures of a campaign. This would be harder to do in a sandbox style game, but in one where the players play recurring characters, it's possible you can have a time period in between adventures where the characters are doing refresher courses, or taking new classes to learn advanced things. Hell it could even be the focus of a particular gaming session, although it does depend on the group you're playing with and what they want to do in a session.

 

[rust]

Having thought about what I really objected to about rust's idea, is that it would effectively take the character the player runs out of the game entirely, which I disagree with.

Ah ... no.

In our campaign we play only up to three adventures per game time year,
the truly important events in the unfolding history of the setting, and the-
refore the characters have lots of "off time".
A character that went to a university can usually only take part in one or
two adventures per game time year, but he is not "out of the game".

 

[CosmicGamer]

Stofsk, you may be interested in:

no skill level - Roll a natural 12 when using a skill you are not trained in and you gain the skill.

For each additional level in skill you need to roll a natural 12 at a higher skill task level or roll more than one natural 12 or a combination of the two.

 

[Quiller]

One rule varient related to skill advancement I use that hasn't made my games unbalanced is to allow use of other specialities within a skill at max-speciality -1 (allowing for tech level), so engineer(jump drives) 2 would also give m-drive, electronics, life support, power at 1.

Same thing for gun combat.. stops someone having to learn slug pistol, rifle and carbine (which was missing from the core book but reintroduced by Central Supply I believe?) separately, they can just go for rifle-2 say, and still be competent with pistols and carbines.

I exclude languages from this, and have allowed it sciences, but at -2.

I like the limit of 3 things at level 4, going to nab that idea thanks!

But I'm also looking for a varient that skews skill acquisition towards the early terms somewhat, I'm after younger, better skilled characters than vanilla chargen pumps out, with more of a diminishing return for later terms.

Any ideas gratefully received!

 

[atpollard]

But I'm also looking for a varient that skews skill acquisition towards the early terms somewhat, I'm after younger, better skilled characters than vanilla chargen pumps out, with more of a diminishing return for later terms.

Any ideas gratefully received!

Change the time frame on the chargen table based on Terms:

One skill roll per year for Term 1.
One skill roll per 2 years for Term 2.
One skill roll per 4 years for Term 3.
-1 to skill roll at Term 4.
-2 to skill roll at Term 5.
-3 to skill roll at Term 6.

 

[CosmicGamer]

But I'm also looking for a varient that skews skill acquisition towards the early terms somewhat, I'm after younger, better skilled characters than vanilla chargen pumps out, with more of a diminishing return for later terms. Any ideas gratefully received!

Some ideas off the top of my head for the low end.

Additional background skills. Possibly allow a certain number of them to be at level 1.

Add in a couple background hobbies. Athletics, arts, even more technical skills could be hobbies. Possibly allow hobbies to increase in level each term up to a max level - it is just a hobby.

Allow basic training skills to be obtained at level 1 or allow them, or half of them, or roll for it, to be increased to level 1 if you do a second term.

Maybe allow some form of officer basic training for when you first get commisioned. Admin, Leadership and whatever is apropriet for the career.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

When GDW printed up a few "famous people" as characters, they gave a bit of a baseline on how to consider skills. I really wish Mongoose would do that because I think it speaks to more people to have a firm example.

Of course, with everyone being IP sue happy these days, it might not work.

IIRC, Scotty's Engineering skill was level 4. Han Solo's piloting was level 3.

I think that gives a much better picture to most people than "internationally acclaimed".

This could be easily averted by using characters which are in the public domain - including (especially) real people.

For example, say Johnny Cochrane is Advocate 3, Aristotle was Advocate 4, and so forth and so on.