Changes. New things. Revisions. Reimaginings.

[WildHealer]

RQ 3 works, no matter if they are freshly hatched from the dice or have skills of 150+ and selfmade/-enchanted gear

That's pretty similar to my experience with high-level campaigns, Vatras. What do you think though of the lack of direction which RQ3 had for high-level characters? That was something which always frustrated me, and which meant me eventually moving high-level campaigns over to the HeroQuest rules, despite change of atmosphere and emphasis.

What I mean by that is, whilst RQ provides an excellent path of (admittedly optional) character progression from lay member to initiate and then through to Rune Priest and Rune Lord, things sort of hang once you get to such high level. Basically, you can keep on getting more and more powerful as a Rune Lord, but RQ never provided any clear rules for what to do once you got there (ie start trying to move towards being a Hero) - whereas at least the HQ rules provide for that progress path.

I had been hoping MRQ would address this - sadly no sign of that yet, but admittedly these are early days.

How did you find play direction once characters had got to pretty high-level Priest/Lord?

 

[Rurik]

Similarly Argan Argar and Cragspider both conquered fire and have fire-based magics for trolls.

In fact, thinking about it, there are more troll cults with fire-based magics than Solar Cults with darkness based magics. It shows who is superior, doesn't it?

Yes it does, I mean why would you want filthy darkness based magics when your pure and good magics are so much better? I mean why else would the toughest trolls prefer them over their own?

I mean ZZ was so afaird of Yelmalio he could only muster the courage to face him when Yelmalio was sorely wounded. Not only that, he had to ambush him as well!


"Har! look at me, I am mighty Zorak Zoran! War god of the Trolls, general of the armies of unde Ooops! here comes Yelmalio I better run and hide , AW no, I've soiled myself...again. Good thing no-one ever notices the smell."

Coughcowardcough.

Absolutely.

Zorak Zoran is a wussy*

Yelmalio would kick his bum-bum* in a fair fight - that is if ZZ had the testicles* to face him head on.

Rurik Runespear

*Trying real hard not to get this thread deleted.

 

[burdock]

its not Zorak Zoranis you have to watch out for Rurik.......its those little 'uns under the care of Xiolar Umbar

 

[Rurik]

its not Zorak Zoranis you have to watch out for Rurik.......its those little 'uns under the care of Xiolar Umbar

MugggafruggafrapplemaphleTrollkinzackawakkafrigg

:evil:

 

[GregLynch]

That being said, I personally feel writing for an established canon is alot like making dinner for a team of chefs. They will always know the old recipes and have their own takes on it, and no matter how good it tastes...it is unlikely to be exactly right.

Having worked for Babylon 5 and Conan before getting professionally into Glorantha, it has always been this way.

I'd like to add to this excellent illustration the sense of gnawing dread when submitting a manuscript for something like B5 or Conan (or RQ, for that matter) that you've missed some tiny, minute bit of canon tucked away in a dusty corner somewhere that will utterly invalidate half of what you've just written.

Or was that just me?

 

[Vatras]

@WildHealer:

First, none of my players was a priest, the 90% commitment to the cult being the reason. I had a runelord (Humakt-like cult, 120 points divine magic, skills of 120-150), a sorcerer (skills around 90-150), a shaman (skills around 130, lots of spirit spells and bound spirits), and a warrior (no magic at all, many combat skills around 150-200, had acquired ki skill for several).
The casters had (after a long look, it took 4 years until the first did it) selfmade matrices, some of them for 10 point effects, enchanted hp and mana were also a favorite.

One of my adventures turned around founding a new colony and the runelord ended up as the ruler. So many things in the campaign focused on this town, often as side adventures. The main focus of the campaign was the conflict between the deities of my pantheon (which was created in the image of the Lords of Dus novels, i.e. seven pairs of light and dark gods, each being the counterpart of his other side).
I have never had problems writing adventures for this background, especially since one of the players was a runelord of the light side.

So the goals of my players (not only their characters) were to create a thriving city (to become later a bridgehead to conquer the barbaric lands south of it), a military force (according to the customs/laws of the kingdom they live in this required political influence and of course gold), and on a higher level to increase the power and influence of their favorite cult.

If you mean with what I challenged them, thats a broad question...in RQ it is easy to find challenges without having to call up Orcus or even something close to him
A group of dark cult assassins, armed each with 6 points spiritmagic, bows and 75% skills, maybe using poison, will do nicely in a pitch

 

[Adept]

The troll thing is a perfect example. Despite seeing warthog monsters in the past, raggedy old men, trolls with muzzles, trolls with muzzles, beards and crazy hair, and now monsters with pig noses, and it's heresy across the board. The cynic in me asks "Well, did you rail like this at every other change in the past? Because those were some massive appearance changes."

You seem to be awfully proud and defensive of things like this, and we still haven't heard of a reason why you ditched the enormous and high quality work of the Troll Pack and Troll Gods books.

Changes for the sake of changes, and the hubris to think your stuff must be better (or at least as good). Blech.

 

[Adept]

There's a lot of stuff out there - watch out for getting swamped by it all! The boards have been going for the best part of 15 years as I recall, and there's some pretty darn dry stuff there sometimes. But for ideas, filling in empty bits of Glorantha, etc, they're worth trawling through.

Hot tip - search through the Glorantha Digest archive for every post by Sandy Petersen. He went through a period in the mid-90s when he posted fairly often.

You won't regret it.

It depends. I've personally never been a fan of Sandy's. The man only thinks about game mechanics. His take on the Cthulhu mythos made every creature rediculously tough and powerful, because he thinks that's the only way to make them horrifying to players. The same shows on his Glorantha stuff. A very gamist writer, our Sandy.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

You seem to be awfully proud and defensive of things like this, and we still haven't heard of a reason why you ditched the enormous and high quality work of the Troll Pack and Troll Gods books.

Changes for the sake of changes, and the hubris to think your stuff must be better (or at least as good). Blech.

I...I see.

I have a few counter-questions. What of mine have you read so far? What of Trollpak and Troll Gods have I ditched? What have I replaced it with?

Where are the changes for the sake of changes in anything I've done?

I think, because of that clearly antagonistic tone, you may have sincerely misunderstood the point of this thread and my own contributions to the game line so far (none of which you've actually seen).

I've stated several times in this very thread that what I'm currently writing right now uses the Trollpak and Troll Gods as 'vital' to it.

If you're talking about the snouth thing, Note that I say again, for millionth time, that I prefer RQ3 noses but I think the overall quality of the MRQ troll art is much higher. I'm a writer. I ventured an opinion on a few pieces of art. That's it.

Slinging those accusations at me - after all I've said in this thread - rings of something eerily venomous for reasons I can't quite narrow down.

 

[Adept]

Where are the changes for the sake of changes in anything I've done?

The example of trolls sweating a rank smelling oil was pretty bad. Admittedly you didn't end up using it, but the logic seemed to to be pretty much what I was critical about.

I think, because of that clearly antagonistic tone, you may have sincerely misunderstood the point of this thread and my own contributions to the game line so far (none of which you've actually seen).

I've stated several times in this very thread that what I'm currently writing right now uses the Trollpak and Troll Gods as 'vital' to it.

If you're talking about the snouth thing, Note that I say again, for millionth time, that I prefer RQ3 noses but I think the overall quality of the MRQ troll art is much higher. I'm a writer. I ventured an opinion on a few pieces of art. That's it.

Slinging those accusations at me - after all I've said in this thread - rings of something eerily venomous for reasons I can't quite narrow down.

Ok. I apologise for the tone. It seemed like you were, repeatedly, stressing the fact that the original illustrations of trolls looked nothing like the trollpak trolls, and that changing them again was exactly on the same level.

It isn't. In RQ 1 / early RQ 2 the trolls (and elves, dwarves and dragonewts) were still not defined very well. To mess with the trolls now, is just silly. They are a well known and loved species, and most propably the best defined fantasy species both regarding their physiology and their culture.

You seem to be taking a somewhat extreme stance on your moral right as an author to change anything you feel like changing because you happen to think it's more cool at the time, and that if the Glorantha fans complain they are just being old sticks in the mud.

To clarify my position:

I'm not very impressed with the new RQ gamesystem, but that's mostly because it doesn't change things enough. RQ was ok in it's day, but never compleatly satisfying.

It's the Glorantha material I'm bying. I really enjoyed the Ralios PDF, and found the new Glorantha book a rather nice read. I think the illustrations are a weak point. There are some excellent pieces (like the chaos monk), but there is way too much poor quality art (like the Glorantha cover).

I have pre-ordered the cults book from my local dealer. Obviously I'm still a client, and I'm hoping the products will only get better as time goes by.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

There was a post you (I think, apologies if I'm confusing you with someone else) made on the "Rune of Chaos" thread about people not assuming every RQ release was for Glorantha which I thought read as a snide/insulting tone, even though, in essence I agreed in principle with the facts.

Absolutely, you're right. However, as of this thread, I'm making a concerted effort to calmly contribute without being snide from now on. I think, with the exception of some baffling comments by Adept, that people seem to think I'm doing okay.

Proud of it? Good, so it isn't rubbish then, despite your protestations that nobody will like it and it doesn't matter because we're all going to die anyway?

I think it'll go down really well. However, I can pinpoint a couple of things that are likely to rile up some people. I think that's just my writer-sense tingling. You always know when you do something that X person will loathe even if Y loves it, etc.

There's a difference between wishing and demanding.
There's a difference between criticizing and insulting.
There's a difference between discussing and lecturing.

There's a difference between building and destroying.

Basically.

I'm not entirely sure what karmic debt I was owed to have you turn up here and explain things the way you do, but I'm grateful to the cosmos all the same.

I'll note also that the vastly overwhelming majority of posts here don't follow the latter parts of those sentences - they're almost always the former. I think, especially with this thread, I understand people's attitudes a lot better, people probably get mine, and we're looking at a new line of communication from now on.

That's one reason I bought the core rule book again as a PDF. I've learned my lesson - the rule books I'm buying as PDFs, while for background I'll buy the actual books. That way I can print out a composite collection of the rules pages I need. If I need mroe fine controll, I can always use Text Select in Acrobat reader.

I do that with another game line, myself. It's working out well for me, as I suspect this will for you.

I have registered to echo what appears to me to be the general feeling among the Runequest Faithful. Greg provided a basis and an ethos, this has been re-worked and amended by several professionals and countless amateurs, and all have taken the joy and fun that the system offered in their own way.

A perfect summation. And welcome aboard, dude.

Similarly Argan Argar and Cragspider both conquered fire and have fire-based magics for trolls.

In fact, thinking about it, there are more troll cults with fire-based magics than Solar Cults with darkness based magics. It shows who is superior, doesn't it?

Yes it does, I mean why would you want filthy darkness based magics when your pure and good magics are so much better? I mean why else would the toughest trolls prefer them over their own?

I mean ZZ was so afaird of Yelmalio he could only muster the courage to face him when Yelmalio was sorely wounded. Not only that, he had to ambush him as well!


"Har! look at me, I am mighty Zorak Zoran! War god of the Trolls, general of the armies of unde Ooops! here comes Yelmalio I better run and hide , AW no, I've soiled myself...again. Good thing no-one ever notices the smell."

Coughcowardcough.

Absolutely.

Zorak Zoran is a wussy*

Yelmalio would kick his bum-bum* in a fair fight - that is if ZZ had the testicles* to face him head on.

Rurik Runespear

*Trying real hard not to get this thread deleted.

This is something I'm very keen on addressing, especially since ZeeZee is coming up in what I'm writing right now. Essentially, as presented in previous times, he can seem a bit of a...well, a wimp. And for a God of War, that's not particularly the angle I'm hoping to convey. (At least not from the troll POV - the God Learners can think whatever they like; they'll never agree with each other on it anyway.)

War isn't always about noble battles and great duels at the heads of armies. It's also about snipers, ambushes, slaughtering helpless innocents and relatives to strike fear into the hearts of the enemy and crush morale, striking while enemy troops are unprepared, and so on. I'm playing these aspects of Zorak Zoran (and his followers) up a great deal.

So while ol' Zeez might not be able to go toe to toe with God-Emperor Yelm in a fistfight, you can bet your best socks that his followers are the cunningest, ambushiest, violentest, ruthlessest, fear-strikingest, get-the-job-done badasses out there.

 

[Adept]

A little clarification still.

I'm not impressed with your writers logic on making trolls really smelly, so that people will be uncomfortable around them. The reason is twofold.

Looking at the troll culture, you'll see they rely on stealth, and are excellent hunters. A terribly smelly hunter isn't a good hunter, as pray animals rely on their sense of smell quite a bit.

And it should be obvious there is no need for glistening sweat to make humans uncomfortable around trolls. Trolls are 1,5 x as big as humans, and they have a very physical and violent culture. Think of how comfortable you would be next to a 6 foot 10 inch, 300 pound cannibal, who keeps sniffing at you and stands in a wary battle crouch, looking around him all the time like he's expecting trouble.

That's a troll, and it takes a really brave human just to interact with one normally even if it's being quite civil (for a troll).

 

[Adept]

This is something I'm very keen on addressing, especially since ZeeZee is coming up in what I'm writing right now. Essentially, as presented in previous times, he can seem a bit of a...well, a wimp. And for a God of War, that's not particularly the angle I'm hoping to convey. (At least not from the troll POV - the God Learners can think whatever they like; they'll never agree with each other on it anyway.)
<snip>
So while ol' Zeez might not be able to go toe to toe with God-Emperor Yelm in a fistfight, you can bet your best socks that his followers are the cunningest, ambushiest, violentest, ruthlessest, fear-strikingest, get-the-job-done badasses out there.

There is an elemental progression on Glorantha. On the elemental level, fire trumps darkness. Trolls are no fools, and they hate and fear creatures of light and fire. Zorak Zoran is a culture hero (and a nutter!) for taking on a god of Fire.

He's a minor demon that has made it into the big league. You've got to love that.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

The example of trolls sweating a rank smelling oil was pretty bad. Admittedly you didn't end up using it, but the logic seemed to to be pretty much what I was critical about.

I see. Well, I'd prefer that than mentioning how much they fart and burp, as was in Trollpak, so I think I'm keeping it in, even if I axed the fire stuff ages ago. Animals sweat. All I did was mention that troll-sweat has a certain unappealing musk. Not a big deal, really.

You didn't like it. Other people did. You never know who to listen to, or which opinion to trust, so you write what you think is good. Such is the craft.

You seem to be taking a somewhat extreme stance on your moral right as an author to change anything you feel like changing because you happen to think it's more cool at the time, and that if the Glorantha fans complain they are just being old sticks in the mud.

No, sorry. Really, truly, sorry. In every fanbase, there are those who take their love for the work to extremes and take any alterations as heresy. Glorantha is as true of this as anything, and when previous Glorantha authors warn me about it and how vexed it made them in the past, as well as seeing it once or twice with my own eyes, I know what I said.

Reading everything that, in all honesty, I've spent a long time and a lot of effort explaining in this thread, if you arrive at the conclusion I'm saying these things about everyone, then you're being incorrect and unfair.

I've said repeatedly that it's the overwhelming minority, that I'm close to the source material, that I've taken a lot of care (and time with Greg Stafford) because conforming to his vision is important to me, that I've got crits myself about the new edition, that I want to be part of the Gloranthan mythos without conflicting with anything, and on and on and on. It's all in this thread.

If you're reading that as me flexing my "moral right as an author to change anything" and that any complaints are invalid, well...you're seeing it, but it's not there. It's your call as to why that is, but seeing as how most people in this thread seem to be contributing without putting words in my mouth or assuming I'm insulting them, I won't venture any opinion on why you're saying what you're saying.

 

[gamesmeister]

You seem to be taking a somewhat extreme stance on your moral right as an author to change anything you feel like changing because you happen to think it's more cool at the time, and that if the Glorantha fans complain they are just being old sticks in the mud.

Yes, his stance is so extreme that he's come on this board and asked for advice on the areas that should or shouldn't be changed... :roll:

 

[simonh]

It depends. I've personally never been a fan of Sandy's. The man only thinks about game mechanics. ...

That's pretty harsh. Are the essays on Troll biology, ecology and evolution in Trollpak all just game mechanics? How about his essays on Agimor culture and hilarious Pamaltelan folk tales? I don't remeber him posting any rules on how hard they make the listener laugh.

Greg's great on the history, cultures and religions of Glorantha but nobody can best Sandy at giving you a real sense of the life of the place.

However yes, having read his campaign log I have to agree the casualty rate amonth the PCs in his game is terrifying. The typical life span of a character seems to be from 4 to 6 game sessions.

 

[burdock]

adept wrote

The example of trolls sweating a rank smelling oil

I think that this idea IS following in the tradition of Trollpak. Some chapters of that original tome went into so much detail about Troll physiology and it is nice to see that DBC has been following on in that tradition with some of his ideas.

Troll hunters could mask their scent just like human hunters have to. Animals are so wary of human scent that it can be neccessaryl to descent the cordage in a trap as it can become contaminated by contact with human hands.

I'm sure the terrible scent of Trolls was intended as an adjunct to the other frightening things about the Uz - not as a replacement. Its cool with me.

Also glad to hear that the noses are more of an artistic impression than an official change.

 

[Exubae]

All I did was mention that troll-sweat has a certain unappealing musk

Most pack hunting animals have an unappealling 'musk' especially after a little rain - wolves stink, and their breath isn't too good either, so can't see a problem... Uz probably think humans stink

Hunting is also about knowing how to approach your prey, how to mask your scent (down wind, roll in cattle muck etc.)

Also Uz hunt tended to specialise in bug hunting - so perhaps the stench of a troll is particulary wholesome to insects... perhaps a little like rotting flesh ... just a thought.

So in otherwords, logically speaking theres nothing wrong with a relatively smelly troll...

DBC you've got a short straw on Trolls though, the old trollpack was pretty cool and detailed, and the Uz are probably the most established fantasy race in Glorrantha or anywhere else come to think of it. You've got a pretty difficult task to rework it.
Reckon you'll get a fair number of Hecklers no matter what you write... kind of a no win situation... best of luck.
Heres hoping you do a wicked job, looking forward to reading it.

Is the Troll book Gloranthan by the way or generic?

oh, can you slap any artist who suggests using piggy noses for his uz

Paul

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

Is the Troll book Gloranthan by the way or generic?

It's Gloranthan. Sorry; forgot to answer that one when it was asked before.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

Also glad to hear that the noses are more of an artistic impression than an official change.

I honestly don't know either way. I'm a l'il cog in a big machine. I get to make reams of art notes on my projects, though. Mongoose are generous as hell about that kinda stuff.

So, y'know, I'll bring up the 'snout' thing. Fear not, amigos.