Chances of Winning

[Davesaint]

I don't think its a case of balancing out all the fleets. If you continue too far down that road then eventually all the ships will just become generic variations of each other with the only difference between races being the name of their ships and their shapes. Who wants to play a game like that?
A different approach is to look at the victory conditions for the game and try to come up with a system that works based on the strengths and weaknesses of the various races.

As an example, I have a historical wargame on my shelf which is based on the air war in Vietnam. One player plays the Americans and gets hordes of aircraft but his opponent playing the NVA gets some SAM batteries and at best a handful of fighters. In a straight shoot-out fight its impossible for the NVA to win but they gain victory points for simply disrupting the american air raids not necessarily destroying their aircraft.

Historically there are alot of cases of asymmetric warfare like this with one opponent superior to the other whether in terms of numbers or technology. Returning to babylon 5 you can apply the same logic. As an example, having an EA battle against the Minbari based solely on victory through destroying ships doesn't really cut it. We know the Minbari are vastly superior with their all-round arced beam weapons and stealth. I recently bought the Earth Minbari War book and although i haven't played the scenarios in there yet on a brief read through there are a few scenarios where the Earth Alliance player wins if ANY of his ships survive the battle with the minbari forces. Sure as the EA you can't win in a blaze of glory sweeping the minbari from your sky but you can still win through clever tactics and sheer tenacity. Going back to historical games for a mo' i have a world war 2 pacific theatre strategy game which uses the same kind of idea and works excellently. The japanese player faced with an evermore powerful US forces has to basically survive until the end of a number of game turns to win the whole game.

What i am trying to say is that with the different races i wouldn't want everyone to have an equal chance of winning based purely on their ships being reasonably equally matched. I'd much rather have a scenario based system where if i am playing the Minbari player i can win by charging in with my superior ships and wholesale wiping out vast amounts of the Earth Alliance or equally if not more technically satisfying by playing the Earth Alliance where I can win with my meagre and outclassed Earth Force by simply holding off the superior Minbari for a certain length of time etc.

I have seen systems like this before. It tends to work well in campaign and historical settings, but not necessarily so well in the one-off setting that many people play. Not a bad idea, but I am not sure it would fit in the ACTA setting.

Dave

 

[Hash]

Abbai could beat the Shadows simply by jumping out? Nice

IT'S A TRAP!

 

[demonllamma]

I play this game because it is fun. If it was horrendously unbalanced, I would not play. I don't seem to have any of these issues of balance. I personally play three fleets ATM. Minbari, Brakiri/Abbai, and ISA. I rarely choose my fleet anymore except in our now defunct campaign. I give my opponents the choice, because I have fun win or lose. I have been defeated with my Minbari in war level games (note that games IS plural). I am frankly tired of hearing the statement "with some fleets, the game is decided on the PL roll." Sorry, but that is a load of bull. That makes it sound like the Minbari get a dozen Sharlins and the EA get a single hermes. I will grant that the Minbari might get a small advantage at War (the same goes for other races at other PLs too), but the advantage is both small, and counterable in all cases IMO.

 

[Geekybiker]

I am frankly tired of hearing the statement "with some fleets, the game is decided on the PL roll." Sorry, but that is a load of bull. .... I will grant that the Minbari might get a small advantage at War (the same goes for other races at other PLs too), but the advantage is both small, and counterable in all cases IMO.

So not true. Take Vree vs Minbari at war PL and tell me the minbari have a "small and counterable" advantage. Its worse at the campaign level when this happens as you have to worry about ship replacement and you cant afford to lose alot of ships on a battle you are unlikely to win. Most often if you roll a strong PL for your opponent and a weak one for you, its cheaper to just cede the objective than fight.

While the advantage may be overcome in alot of cases, there are still large difference in force power at certain PL. As always, dice can run really cold for anyone and force the occasional loss.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

So not true. Take Vree vs Minbari at war PL and tell me the minbari have a "small and counterable" advantage. Its worse at the campaign level when this happens as you have to worry about ship replacement and you cant afford to lose alot of ships on a battle you are unlikely to win. Most often if you roll a strong PL for your opponent and a weak one for you, its cheaper to just cede the objective than fight.

Yup, that's war for you.

Wulf

 

[Tank]

If you think about it tho the universe the game is set in isnt balanced but the game makes a credible attempt at it, why worry the Minbari are supposed to be superior as are the Centauri to an extent and the Vorlons & shadows are supposed to be godlike, Earth is supposed to have the Duplo brix in space the narn are.......... well Im not entirely sure but e-mines are scary

Personally if it weas supposed to be completely balanced it wouldnt be B5 anymore, 27 Sharlins against an Olympus isnt exactly balanced yet as Wulf siad, "thats war"

 

[l33tpenguin]

If you think about it tho the universe the game is set in isnt balanced but the game makes a credible attempt at it, why worry the Minbari are supposed to be superior as are the Centauri to an extent and the Vorlons & shadows are supposed to be godlike, Earth is supposed to have the Duplo brix in space the narn are.......... well Im not entirely sure but e-mines are scary

Personally if it weas supposed to be completely balanced it wouldnt be B5 anymore, 27 Sharlins against an Olympus isnt exactly balanced yet as Wulf siad, "thats war"

That argument would make sense if an olympus was a 27 war point ship

 

[Tank]

sorry watched "In the beginning" just recently and admired a completely ludicrous scene

 

[B5freak]

sorry watched "In the beginning" just recently and admired a completely ludicrous scene

"Give me Ludicrous Speed!"

Now that's a Special Action.

 

[Tank]

27 Sharlins to destroy an Olympus is a definate overkill scenario

 

[l33tpenguin]

Whether or not its been stated, the Spirit of this thread is, from what I can gather:

With two equally skilled players, given two random races in a random priority level, do they both stand a fair chance of being able to select from the ships avaliable to them and put together a fleet with at least a reasonable chance of winning.

Now, What is the ratio of 'yes' to 'no' for that answer? Understandably things wont always be balanced as such, but if the given example above is only true less than 50% of the time, I think there is a problem.

 

[demonllamma]

So not true. Take Vree vs Minbari at war PL and tell me the minbari have a "small and counterable" advantage.

As a matter of fact, the Vree are the only fleet I have ever used that I wiped out a Minbari fleet with. It addmittedly was not war, however it was 5-6 battle. It was not easy, nor was it cheap (I only had a few ships left at the end), but it is doable. Lots of scout saucers was my answer, and it worked wonderfully. Solid tactics will overcome any advantages of any fleet any day of the week at any PL.

 

[B5freak]

l33penguine wrote:

With two equally skilled players, given two random races in a random priority level, do they both stand a fair chance of being able to select from the ships avaliable to them and put together a fleet with at least a reasonable chance of winning.

That's exactly the question, as I read it, from the first post, and I think the answers so far indicate a resounding "No".

 

[Apachex]

Yup, that's war for you.

Wulf

I hate this excuse. The game is not war. It is nothing close to war. It is a game meant for fun and entertainment. War is about killing people and breaking things. No attempt at balance is made. This is just the default excuse I often see in all games to excuse a percieved balance problem. A game is where we both bring tanks, war is where I have a tank and you have an RPG.

 

[l33tpenguin]

Yup, that's war for you.

Wulf

I hate this excuse. The game is not war. It is nothing close to war. It is a game meant for fun and entertainment. War is about killing people and breaking things. No attempt at balance is made. This is just the default excuse I often see in all games to excuse a percieved balance problem. A game is where we both bring tanks, war is where I have a tank and you have an RPG.

Not quite. War is where the scales are so unbalanced that there is nothing you can do as your friends bleed to death in your arms. War is where I murder your children and rape your wife to get information about your next move. War is where I stay back and pumple you with cruise missiles and smart bombs until there is nothing left for you to defend with. War is what leaves you with two stumps where your legs were because you stepped in the wrong place.

 

[markn]

So not true. Take Vree vs Minbari at war PL and tell me the minbari have a "small and counterable" advantage.

As a matter of fact, the Vree are the only fleet I have ever used that I wiped out a Minbari fleet with. It addmittedly was not war, however it was 5-6 battle. It was not easy, nor was it cheap (I only had a few ships left at the end), but it is doable. Lots of scout saucers was my answer, and it worked wonderfully. Solid tactics will overcome any advantages of any fleet any day of the week at any PL.

Demonllama, please play a 5 point raid game with you as the vorlons and someone else (lets say Triggy for example) as the Shadows. Play 10 games if you have the time. Tell me how confident you are in your statement after that.

I really believe that your statement can apply to a lot of the B5 fleets but not to every fleet and not to every engagements. I also think imbalances happens a bit too much. If people can provide examples, like a previous poster did with the vree and minbari and brakiri/minbari then everyone has something constructive to consider. This is the first step for an improvement.

I think the other issue that really muddies the waters so to speak, is that most players only have experience with one or two fleets and only against one or two fleets. If they are balanced then you hear that everything is fine. Other people see different matchups that may not be balanced and it is those people who claim it isn't balanced. To a major degree, tactics and ship choices play a part but there is also the likelihood that there is an issue of balance in those matchups. Try my suggestion above and lets see what happens. The whole point is to try to identify if there is a badly balanced matchup, not whether there is balance or a lack of balance as that argument will never have an ending.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

A game is where we both bring tanks, war is where I have a tank and you have an RPG.

Ever hear of a game called 'OGRE'?

Wulf

 

[markn]

I should add that the thread can certainly point out positives as well. If there are matchups that seem to be perfectly balanced, let hear them.

Personally I think, Narn and Centauri are very comparative.

 

[Geekybiker]

It think part of the problem is that you never have two players of the exact same skill to judge the effectiveness of a fleet. The only real solution to that is to sit down and play with yourself.

 

[B5freak]

Wulf Corbett wrote:

Ever hear of a game called 'OGRE'?

Yep, and that kind of imbalance is why it's sitting the bargain bin of almost every game store I've ever seen.

markn,

I've played EA vs Centauri many, many times. Bad match-up. Full arc beams vs boresight just ain't fair, largely due to one fleet's ability to go on CAF! while the other dances around trying to line up a boresight.

I've played EA vs Minbari and run into roughly the same issue. Stealth is ugly, but you can get around it. The main problem here is being able to do enough damage when you do get through.

I've played Minbari vs Centauri which is actually a good match-up. The Centauri have a great, low-cost scout, a fighter that can go toe-to-toe with the Nial in a dogfight, and enough firepower to make a difference when they do get past Stealth.

I've played Vorlons vs Shadows and seen the same thing you have. Medium ranged weapons plus poor turning plus limited fire arc equals dead Vorlons.

I've played Shadows vs Vree and that's just really painful for the Shadows. Shadows can jump anywhere they like, but the Vree turrets are going to find them.

I've played Vree vs pretty much everybody and despite their fragility, they are one of the more brutal fleets in the game.

I've played combined League (Drazi, Vree, Abbai, Brakiri) vs Centauri and found that the combined League is a force to be reconed with except for the Drazi. I'd have done much better putting my one Battle point of Drazi elsewhere.

I've played Abbai vs most everyone. Again, a good solid fleet. They definitely have an achilles heel in their short range, but a smart admiral can get around that. In the one game of Abbai vs Vorlons that I got in, the Abbai wiped the Vorlons out with little trouble.

The Drazi, are, in fact, the one fleet I haven't really played with or against, but that's largely because nobody here has been foolish enough to waste their money on them. Overall the only two fleets that I'm worried about in terms of their being just a waste are Vorlons and Drazi. In every other case, the problems narrow down to one or two ships here or there that you just have to scratch your head at. A Tashkat is worth a War point? An Omega is the workhorse of the EA? A Corvan is a Patrol? The Torotha is the best the Minbari can come up with at Skirmish?