CENTAURI HUNTING PACK: BROKEN?!

[Chandler]

As a minabri player it is in my opinion a scary concept - in the past I have always relied on stealth and range when combatting the Centauri but not they can have a range to match or beat most of the weapons on my ships and they get multiple chances to break stealth, making it easier for each additional ship (in a squadron of six!) to see the target.

I am against this rule also because: HOW CAN A WEAPONS SYSTEM INCREASE IN RANGE!!

Missiles, beams etc have a range because this is as far as they can physically travel so how the hell can they travel any further distance? The only way this can be done previously in the rules in through a ship refit!

Also very jealous of this as all we get (I know Minbari are hard but equally so are the Centauri) is a crappy webb of death when the Minbari already have advanced anti-fighter. However the Minbari, like the Centauri don't really need any other perks.

 

[No. 1 Bear]

HOW CAN A WEAPONS SYSTEM INCREASE IN RANGE!!

I suppose this is supposed to represent the fact that as there in a hunting pack they are in fact stationary they are constantly moving to and fro to and fro. Taking the lead then falling back.

This is going to be really really open to abuse lots of missiles will be the centauri thing. So from a beam horde to a good fleet to a missile fleet.

 

[Diesel]

Speaking as a new Centauri player, I'd actually resolved not to take any more Demos to any tournaments on the basis that the fleet is good enough not to need them. Having packs of smaller ships seemed like introducing a new trait to a fleet that maybe didn't need it, but of itself it didn't seem broken.

That said, I think we should hold fire on judging things until we see the book and can confirm the wording of the rule. No real point having a go otherwise.

 

[Target]

But can't they only fire at that target, so one demos brings the ship with 18" & vorchans weapons become 18". Honestly how often that you wouldn't have all the demos in the same range & 20" anyway , it really just makes you take lot's of little ships again on both sides has big ones are liabilty. Yes i think it's a silly rule.

 

[Alexb83]

HOW CAN A WEAPONS SYSTEM INCREASE IN RANGE!!

I suppose this is supposed to represent the fact that as there in a hunting pack they are in fact stationary they are constantly moving to and fro to and fro. Taking the lead then falling back.

This is going to be really really open to abuse lots of missiles will be the centauri thing. So from a beam horde to a good fleet to a missile fleet.

Under that reasoning, they're all still open to return fire - however as per the rule, they are not. One can edge forward and absorb all the enemies' fire, whilst the others pour in their own with impunity.

Mix in the longest range ship at any PL with the ships with the most damaging firepower (probably balanced with moderate range or slow loading) and they're now 50% further from the enemy (more time to reload for round 2 of firing) and a significant step further back from any return fire in the following turn.

It effectively forces people to charge in to fight the Centauri - where the Centauri were already built to kill things at close range. What fun.

 

[Da Boss]

perhaps its all a April Fools joke :shock: :lol:

 

[Funbeast]

look at it this way, why would the powers that be really care if the rules in the book stuff up the game.
After all it's only gonna be on sale for about a month and a half then the whole games out of print and down the tubes anyway.

 

[Greg Smith]

Given that the plan is for a further edition of ACTA with a different licence, I am sure they don't want to annoy the players who might stick around for the same game in a different setting.

 

[silashand]

Speaking as a new Centauri player, I'd actually resolved not to take any more Demos to any tournaments on the basis that the fleet is good enough not to need them.

The Demos has been downgraded in the new book as per the playtest rules.

As for the exact wording of the rule:

A Hunting Pack is a special type of Centauri squadron. It may contain up to six ships, of which none may be higher than Raid level. Ships within a Hunting Pack must all attack the same target in each turn - this will usually be an enemy ship, but may be several ships within the same enemy squadron if preferred.

Ao long as the target remains within range of one ship within the Hunting Pack, every other ship in the pack may increase the Range of all their weapons by half, as they utilise combined targeting data throughout the squadron.

Personally, the more I think about it the less I think it's as powerful as people are saying, and certainly less so than the original playtest version. As I see it there are two main advantages of this rule:

1) it allows large squadrons with medium to short range weaponry to all attack the same target.

2) it allows the players to avoid a certain bit of return fire with some of their ships.

The most complained about advantage is #2 above apparently. However, what most people here seem to forget is that the vast majority of Centauri weapons are short ranged anyway and even allowing the extra 50% range seems not as advantageous as people think given that many if not most other fleets outrange them anyway. Also, another point players seem to have forgotten is that large squadrons reduce your initiative sink potential, thus there is the built-in disadvantage that your opponent may just happen to get to shoot before you and thus eliminate the one ship in range. IMO that's a significant disadvantage and would require careful thought by the Centauri player as to what risks he's willing to take. With the Hunting Pack being comprised of nothing but Raid and lower vessels, it's not unlikely that a single ship could be eliminated with concentrated fire. At least that's my experience anyway.

Also is the thought that complaining about this one rule in isolation ignores the other rules that have been implemented in P&P. The Minbari web of death is murder for fighters against that fleet. The Narn ignore crits on a 6+ for their big ships gives them an advantage no other fleet has. So all in all I'm not as concerned about this as some people seem to fear, though I admit I am dismayed that it was not apparently playtested. I think the idea was to give something to each race that seemed in character and while some people here liked the thought of encouraging using Centauri big ships, the whole hunting pack / wolfpack idea would seem more appropriate for smaller ships given the background. Sure, I might support other rules that encourage the big ships, but like the Whitestar being the penultimate Raid ship based on the show, the Hunting Pack idea seems very much in character to me. It will remain to be seen if it's truly broken or not I think.

Given that the plan is for a further edition of ACTA with a different licence, I am sure they don't want to annoy the players who might stick around for the same game in a different setting.

Agreed. Granted, I personally am hoping for a ship construction formula. If it just happened to include all the existing weapons & special abilities it would allow us with B5 fleets to simply convert them according to the new ruleset and continue to play ACtA within the universe we like, all the while supporting the new universe as well. JMO anyway, but I think it would be possible to move the game forward while still allowing players to use what they already have. I don't know how likely this scenario is, but it is what I would try to do were I in their shoes.

Cheers, Gary

 

[Triggy]

Speaking as a new Centauri player, I'd actually resolved not to take any more Demos to any tournaments on the basis that the fleet is good enough not to need them.

The Demos has been downgraded in the new book as per the playtest rules.

As for the exact wording of the rule:

A Hunting Pack is a special type of Centauri squadron. It may contain up to six ships, of which none may be higher than Raid level. Ships within a Hunting Pack must all attack the same target in each turn - this will usually be an enemy ship, but may be several ships within the same enemy squadron if preferred.

Ao long as the target remains within range of one ship within the Hunting Pack, every other ship in the pack may increase the Range of all their weapons by half, as they utilise combined targeting data throughout the squadron.

Personally, the more I think about it the less I think it's as powerful as people are saying, and certainly less so than the original playtest version. As I see it there are two main advantages of this rule:

1) it allows large squadrons with medium to short range weaponry to all attack the same target.

2) it allows the players to avoid a certain bit of return fire with some of their ships.

Thanks for the wording.

I think the biggest advantage is that the squadron will get to fire a turn earlier than they would have otherwise done (12" weaponry now being within 18" and only requiring one longer ranged weapon in the entire squadron to do this), and all before the enemy can respond with more than one ship firing. Sorry, don't like this and I can see the Demos being the ship of choice for at least the single ship to get a shot in at range, maybe mixed with an all-Vorchan squadron.

I am against this rule also because: HOW CAN A WEAPONS SYSTEM INCREASE IN RANGE!!

Missiles, beams etc have a range because this is as far as they can physically travel so how the hell can they travel any further distance?

In space, why would any weapon system have a maximum range? The answer is they don't as there's no atmosphere to cause drag and no atmosphere to cause diffraction of a laser (I know there are a few particles but for all intents and purposes space is effectively empty).

The reason why ships have a maximum range is a combination of targetting issues and travel time for non-photonic weaponry. Other than that, no reason at all why a laser shouldn't be shooting 1000" at a stationary target and hitting the exact square metre it's aiming at.

 

[Target]

Having less sinks means it's more likely the squadron will have fired first. Centauri don't have a problem getting into range so this why i find the rule a bit strange.

 

[silashand]

I think the biggest advantage is that the squadron will get to fire a turn earlier than they would have otherwise done (12" weaponry now being within 18" and only requiring one longer ranged weapon in the entire squadron to do this), and all before the enemy can respond with more than one ship firing.

One ship or *squadron*. Nothing says the opponent has to play individual ships in response. Also as I noted, the use of larger squadrons reduces your own initiative sink potential and the hunting pack's target may or may not be the priority one in the game at the moment. It will depend on the scenario and as I said, at Raid level and below it's not that difficult to eliminate a single ship with concentrated firepower. The Minbari for instance with their long range beams would really care less if the Centauri have 12" or 18" weapons. As I said, most fleets seem to have a longer range than the Centauri so I don't see it as the threat most people imagine. That may change after playing, but at the moment it's what I see.

I can see the Demos being the ship of choice for at least the single ship to get a shot in at range, maybe mixed with an all-Vorchan squadron.

That may work every other turn, but if your weapon cannot fire due to slow loading, then you are not in range unless you are in range of something that actually *can* shoot. At least that's how I play the rule and it makes the most sense. You can't be in range of something that cannot fire since the turn they are loading the weapon they are effectively range zero (what are they going to do, *throw* the shell out an airlock at you? ;-)).

Cheers, Gary

 

[Chandler]

Replying to an earlier comment which said that weapons range should not be limited to range in space because weapons fire continues to move at a constant I would like to reply that:

Missiles would lock on and have a certain amount of propellant to keep the missile travelling towards the locked taget

AND

Maybe the weapon cannot fire and hit the target in the same turn because of the amount of time the weapon takes to reach the target.

Also the Centuri have better weapons than most fleets which have the only advantage of being able to outrange them. Each race has a weakness and the Centauri's weakness it range of weapons and this rule takes this weakness of a strong fleet away.

Replying to the comment that all fleets gain something I would like to say that the Minbari don't lose thier easily crippled state and low damage and the Drazi don't lose their weakness of having one ark of fire.

THIS NEW RULE IS COMPLETELY BROKEN AND WAS NOT NEEDED AT ALL - IT MAKES THE CENTAURI THEMSELVES BROKEN FOR ANY PLAYER WHO USES THIS NEW RULE.

I am also completely dismayed that Mongoose and Matt obviously knew that players would not like this rule and for this reason just didn't bother to present it for playtesting.

Personally I would like Matt to respond to why this rule was implimented as it makes an already powerful race and fleet broken.

ALSO as a minbari player webb of death is murder for fighters but it is not as broken as this new rule. Personally Webb Of Death is in my opinion as Minbari player not needed and another advantage to an already powerful fleet..................................................

Response Matt please?

 

[Target]

It only needs to work once before the rest are in range & pretty much stay in range. Most raid ships don't have more than 18 range anyway even minbari, 2AD beams aren't really going to do squat at 24". I actually found 12'" better than most races as most of the weapons are 8-12 anyway- only big ships with big weapons are longer.
You don't even have to have lot's of skirmish ships in the squadron- Demos & Kutai's anyone- they go to 22.5" range on their main weapon.
Demos fires torps & then ion cannons become 18" as well as matter cannons. Makes 1 Demos & 2 kutai quite dangerous for not much outlay. Making Kutai ions cannons 9" is huge in smaller games- cause they struggled to bring them to bear cause of their slower speed.
Morgaths beams effectively becomes 15". Increasing range is a quick way to unbalance things fast. One thing that stopped the Centauri was lack of range & it wasn't really a problem with their ships speeds.
Even worse Darkner with 27" range cause of Elutairan. Can you say how many precise beam dice before most races can shoot back.- Broken big time unfortunately unless the crit issue have been fixed.

 

[silashand]

THIS NEW RULE IS COMPLETELY BROKEN AND WAS NOT NEEDED AT ALL - IT MAKES THE CENTAURI THEMSELVES BROKEN FOR ANY PLAYER WHO USES THIS NEW RULE.

Suffice to say I disagree.

Cheers, Gary

 

[mollari_uk]

The rule doesn't seen right to me, especially for the Centauri as I don't think they need this, but I'll reserve my judgement until I've played it.

There is one downside that no one seems to be paying attention to. The fact that they all HAVE to fire at the same target (regardless of whether they are using the 50% range). That's six ships all firing at one. Chances are the target ship will be destroyed but how many shots will be wasted?

 

[Target]

It's a squadron so you don't have to have 6 ships in it. I've never had more than 3 in a squadron for that very reason & not to lose too many int sinks. How often do you not fire your squadron at the same target. There really isn't a downside to it at all. Yea my raid down Cent ships basically have got about 20% better- pretty cool considering they were better than most people ships. Ships are better & have better Intiative than most fleets. At least it's not all of them.

 

[Greg Smith]

There is one downside that no one seems to be paying attention to. The fact that they all HAVE to fire at the same target

That is true. It is a quite a significant limitation. Less so for Vorchan/Demos packs, but it is one none the less.

This rule does away with all most of the inherent problems of the previous rule, which is good. It is certainly a very powerful tool for Centauri players and I would like to have seen it playtested before its inclusion in the book.

Was it neccesary for the strength of the Centauri fleet? No.
Is it interesting? Yes.
Is it broken? Will have to wait and see.

 

[mollari_uk]

Ah, I didn't see that it's "up to 6 ships". If it had to be 6 ships then it would both be less effective and fit the Hunting "pack" description. Two ships is not a pack.

This is crap and probably broken. It makes squadrons which I already don't really care for even better, which the Centauri don't need.

I doubt playtesting will make this look any better.

 

[Burger]

Yes it may be a disadvantage that you have to fire all at one enemy ship... but why not have multiple hunting packs to overcome this? Combine an Elutarian with a Sulust or Centurion or one Demos, multiple times.