Centauri Demos and Vorchan
- Thread starter Lone Gunman
- Start date
Lord David the Denied said:
3 Vorchans
2 Demos
8 wings of fighters
For 3 RAID points?
Personally, I don't think that is half bad.
If you're concerned about fighters, throw in a Balvarin and you have fighters out the whazoo PLUS one more RAID point for a dedicated warship (Centaurian, Sulust, Altarin etc.).
Abraxas said:
3 raid point fleets
How bout
5 Olympus & 8 T -bolts/furies
5 Torotha & 4 Nials
5 Ka Toc/ Ka Tans & 10 +*5 frazi's
5 Strikehawks, 12 Star snakes & *5 sky Serpents
3 Sags,6 Tethys missle, 18 tiger furies
6 Pak Ikorta
3 Xeel, 3 Xixx or Xirr (*12 Tyzmms)
9 Bluestars 12 t-Bolts/furies
2 Targarths, 2 jaskar Torpedo thingys 8 Thoruns +*4 thoruns
5 Brikorta,10 pikatos,*20 falkosi
3 Milani carriers, 6 Tiraca, *12 kotha, shields stop hits so DD don't matter i think
1 Fast Destroyer, 4 raiders i guess ( Drakh seem a little weak to me but haven't played them guess it depends on the dodge.)
3 Chronos 6 hermes *6 Furies
Any Gaim seem pretty good
All these fleets have good chance of beating the Vorchan/Demos fleet
*(including the fighters on the ship)
The point remains they are highly over(fire)powered for a skirmish vessel. Players generally don't like it if the enemy's skirmish vessels pose as big a threat as the bigger hulls... Anyone playing with Chronos, Ochlavita, hell even katocs, will understand that a 1vs1 is a no go 
'but in larger battles you have the rest of your fleet to deal with them' Indeed, but then you will have primus, centurions,... happily blasting at your fleet while you are busy with the vorchans...
What I don't know yet (and I'm waiting for triggy for this) is where the problem really lies.. The Vorchan being overpowered or a lot of the other skirmish ships being underpowered...
'but in larger battles you have the rest of your fleet to deal with them' Indeed, but then you will have primus, centurions,... happily blasting at your fleet while you are busy with the vorchans...
What I don't know yet (and I'm waiting for triggy for this) is where the problem really lies.. The Vorchan being overpowered or a lot of the other skirmish ships being underpowered...
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
scorpioni said:The point remains they are highly over(fire)powered for a skirmish vessel. Players generally don't like it if the enemy's skirmish vessels pose as big a threat as the bigger hulls... Anyone playing with Chronos, Ochlavita, hell even katocs, will understand that a 1vs1 is a no go
'but in larger battles you have the rest of your fleet to deal with them' Indeed, but then you will have primus, centurions,... happily blasting at your fleet while you are busy with the vorchans...
What I don't know yet (and I'm waiting for triggy for this) is where the problem really lies.. The Vorchan being overpowered or a lot of the other skirmish ships being underpowered...
Shoe's on the other foot, though isn't it? Previously it was the Narn skirmishers that were grossly overpowered and the Centauri ones that were shite. Now the Narn have been toned down and the Centauri buffed up, and the complaints start. Personally I don't see the Vorchan as overpowered, but the old Ka'Tan was sick. Narn ships are acceptable now and I think the Vorchan is too.
hehe Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
Sooner or later, something gets designed that's a bit too good. Can't be avoided, really. You just have to hope the playtesters spot it and nobble it, but they're only human too, and they miss things. For myself, as I said, I think the Vorchan is fine, and the Demos could stand to drop a couple of AD on the ion cannon to be balanced, but it's not a major issue.
Mean like a Hyperion used to have about the same firepower as a Omega. Thats why they were always destroyed first.
The thing is you aren't busy with Vorchans for long.
If it balances out in a fleet game then there is no real issue is there?
None of those 3 raid point fleets were going to get their butts handed to them in fact they could of win. There isn't many fleets i didn't list there.
They do have weak points but i must admit that that range 12" DD is the issue as i see it. It should probably be either range 8 or 12 & single dam.
The Vorchans strong points
Fast & Manueverable
Huge Firepower
Weak points
Lower end of hits with no defenses.(Demos interceptors for slow loading i guess)
1 Arc - lose an arc & you are stuffed. No stuff to make people go boom.
Low Troops
No Antifighter
All weapons interceptable which is important as fighter can cover you now if you don't have them already. Thats damn useful.
Games i've fought in they were vapourised in pretty quick order. They are a priority target. You can't let them run round your flanks unless there are Nova' type ships about guarding.
It's not like the Sags sitting on the other side of the table firing salvo after salvo into you while you can't retailiate. They do have close & their speed makes it so.
They aren't unkillable. Olympii are as good trust me on that.
The thing is you aren't busy with Vorchans for long.
If it balances out in a fleet game then there is no real issue is there?
None of those 3 raid point fleets were going to get their butts handed to them in fact they could of win. There isn't many fleets i didn't list there.
They do have weak points but i must admit that that range 12" DD is the issue as i see it. It should probably be either range 8 or 12 & single dam.
The Vorchans strong points
Fast & Manueverable
Huge Firepower
Weak points
Lower end of hits with no defenses.(Demos interceptors for slow loading i guess)
1 Arc - lose an arc & you are stuffed. No stuff to make people go boom.
Low Troops
No Antifighter
All weapons interceptable which is important as fighter can cover you now if you don't have them already. Thats damn useful.
Games i've fought in they were vapourised in pretty quick order. They are a priority target. You can't let them run round your flanks unless there are Nova' type ships about guarding.
It's not like the Sags sitting on the other side of the table firing salvo after salvo into you while you can't retailiate. They do have close & their speed makes it so.
They aren't unkillable. Olympii are as good trust me on that.
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
That's just it, really. Vorchan hits hard but goes down easy if you point some guns at it. I strongly disagree on the range issue, the biggest fault with the old Vorchan was the worthless 8" range single damage guns. It had no teeth and no hit points, it was a turkey unit. As far as I'm concerned only tiny little guns like EA light pulse cannons should be range 8", anything else should be 10" minimum and 12" or above for primary guns like Centauri ion cannons.
Locutus9956
Mongoose
I dont mind the Vorchan, its good but not TOO good, the Demos I think possibly could do with being reduced to 8AD or maybe even 6 (to make room for interceptors....) but even still i dont see it as THAT big an issue.
Right Hand of God
Mongoose
I don't think there is anything wrong with either the Vorchan or the Demos. Before the 2nd Ed was released people were crying out for the Iconic ships to be made into ships that you would want to take on the table top. The Vorchan/Demos is now just that. Centauri players want to take it, every body else will not want to face it but that does not justify calls for them to be toned down.
They are pack hunters, yes they deal a hell of a punch, but they are not a ship that is going to withstand a lot of fire power. Hull five, bottom end of the Crew/Damage levels, 1 fire arc. It's a glass jawed thug. Perfect for delivering a blow then running.
I don't understand all the complaints so quickly
They are pack hunters, yes they deal a hell of a punch, but they are not a ship that is going to withstand a lot of fire power. Hull five, bottom end of the Crew/Damage levels, 1 fire arc. It's a glass jawed thug. Perfect for delivering a blow then running.
I don't understand all the complaints so quickly
Target said:
That's cause they are glass cannons... which I thought was the point some people were trying to make?
It's likely the Vorcans will get the first but will reap it with the return fire.
They aren't overpowered (especially when compared to the options other fleets have) and I think your list proves that very well.
I guess one would have to try out a battle of 8 Vorchans against a fleet that is worth 1 War point. Like 1 Omega and 2 Novas. (Seems kinda like a good matchup)
But triggys numbers are disturbing. (And yes the Ka'Tan was so grossly overpowered it was boring, unless you couldnt hit to save your own hide)
But triggys numbers are disturbing. (And yes the Ka'Tan was so grossly overpowered it was boring, unless you couldnt hit to save your own hide)
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
The Nova can easily take a pair of Vorchans, barring naff rolls. It's defended against their fire, has fighters to help and enough AD to demolish them. The Omega could kill one a turn with a decent run on its beams, or the pulse variant could just blast them apart.
Me and a friend played a game on Saturday and my 4 Vorchans took out his Marathon on turn 1 due to a few lucky rolls, which was nice (although he certainly didn't think so!!!) 
Although saying that 2 of them didn't survive the trun with the 4 Cronos's that were in the area firing at them and the other two didn't see the end of turn 2, still a more than reasonable exchange I think.
I can see why people are of the oppinion that they are slightly overpowered but the argument that you need to use one of your larger ships to take em out is nulified by the fact that that would then leave your skirmish ships to go after other things.
Although saying that 2 of them didn't survive the trun with the 4 Cronos's that were in the area firing at them and the other two didn't see the end of turn 2, still a more than reasonable exchange I think.
I can see why people are of the oppinion that they are slightly overpowered but the argument that you need to use one of your larger ships to take em out is nulified by the fact that that would then leave your skirmish ships to go after other things.
My issue with any varient is when it doesn't represent a viable choice.
Good varients make you make choices, like "do I want to trade longer range for more up-close firepower", for example. the new stats for the Ka'Tac / Ka'ton are a grea example fo this . Both have their uses, both represent a trade-off.
No matter how I run the numbers on the Demos, it is quite simply the bet choice hands down. There is no reason to take a Vorchan over a Demos ever.
The fact that it appears to be the strongest Skirmish level ship of the core fleets is another issue entirely.
Good varients make you make choices, like "do I want to trade longer range for more up-close firepower", for example. the new stats for the Ka'Tac / Ka'ton are a grea example fo this . Both have their uses, both represent a trade-off.
No matter how I run the numbers on the Demos, it is quite simply the bet choice hands down. There is no reason to take a Vorchan over a Demos ever.
The fact that it appears to be the strongest Skirmish level ship of the core fleets is another issue entirely.
Triggy's numbers are disturbing...
Target listed off a number of ships but was completely off on one aspect...the abbai shields. Shields do stop hits, but DD does very much matter. Shields stop hits but each hit is multiplied by its damage multiplier for the number of boxes removed. So the tiraca takes three DD hits to lose its shield, and now its just a patrol ship with short range weapons.
Ripple
Target listed off a number of ships but was completely off on one aspect...the abbai shields. Shields do stop hits, but DD does very much matter. Shields stop hits but each hit is multiplied by its damage multiplier for the number of boxes removed. So the tiraca takes three DD hits to lose its shield, and now its just a patrol ship with short range weapons.
Ripple
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Im sorry I just dont agree. The Demos has some of its AD as slow loading and theyre not double damage either. The Vorchan over the course of several turns, assuming it keeps all its guns in range will generally have a HIGHER damage output than a Demos. The Demos is SLIGHTLY tougher due to its interceptor and has a slightly longer range with its torpedoes.
I would personally say the Demo's torpedoes are about even with the plasma accelerator in effectiveness, and the only issue I have with the two is that I think it should have 8 dice like the Vorchan or maybe less to counter the interceptor. Thats it.
And yes both ships are strong but having played about with with them a little now I actually dont think theyre over the top. Theyre GOOD but not broken good.
In fact now Ive played with them Im personally of the oppinion that an EA fleet stands a good chance against them. Ok so maybe Chronos are not the answer now but as someone pointed out, if your using a big ship like a Marathon or an Omega to swat the little buggers then your Chronos can go swarm something else, and if the Vorchans go after the Chronos then that should just make it that much easier for your big boys to line them up and blow them to kingdom come
I would personally say the Demo's torpedoes are about even with the plasma accelerator in effectiveness, and the only issue I have with the two is that I think it should have 8 dice like the Vorchan or maybe less to counter the interceptor. Thats it.
And yes both ships are strong but having played about with with them a little now I actually dont think theyre over the top. Theyre GOOD but not broken good.
In fact now Ive played with them Im personally of the oppinion that an EA fleet stands a good chance against them. Ok so maybe Chronos are not the answer now but as someone pointed out, if your using a big ship like a Marathon or an Omega to swat the little buggers then your Chronos can go swarm something else, and if the Vorchans go after the Chronos then that should just make it that much easier for your big boys to line them up and blow them to kingdom come
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