Catching sorcerers with their pants down

[Solmyr]

I've been thinking about it, and it seems that most sorcerers in Hyboria are so arrogant and certain that nothing can touch them, that ultimately the best way to defeat them is to play on that arrogance. Consider:

- Thoth-Amon gets his magic ring stolen by a common thief, and ends up enslaved by a criminal.
- Tsotha-lanti just tosses Conan into his cellar and assumes that's all that is needed; later he is totally shocked, shocked when Conan appears alive and well. (As a note, the original way Pelias was captured doesn't speak highly of his judgment, either.)
- Yara is sitting in a lotus dream, and is completely surprised when Conan plonks the Heart of the Elephant at him.
- Only the Master of Yimsha appears to be prepared for most eventualities (it's been a while since I read that story but I don't recall any major blunders on his part). This, among other things, makes him my favorite Hyborian big bad sorcerer.

So, how do you run your evil wizards in Hyboria? Are they arrogant villains who end up defeated because your players do something they totally didn't expect? Or do they prepare better and only a really genius plan will take them down?

Edit: I forgot Xaltotun. Also been a while since I read HotD, did he actually come up with some good plan or did he just assume that Conan will die because he says so?

 

[The King]

Sorcerers are just common people (for the most part) with particular knowledge giving them an edge over other commoners who fear this knowledge.
It's like a space shuttle: it may be impressive but if you strike some blows, it won't work anymore, just like anything else.
A better comparison is with that plane for morons, the Concord. It was the only passengers airplane that could reach supersonic speed but it blew up its tyres during one take-off and exploded in flight.

In fact I would compare sorceres to powerful but dangerous science.

 

[Thorvang]

I truly beleive that arrogance, relative genius, and a feeling of physical invulnerability are the greatest weaknesses of a sorceror, and it only stands to reason that the cunning and knowing opponent can overcome them using these shortcomings against them. Other than that, wizards can be nigh invincible when faced on their own turf and terms, and I always play them as such. :twisted:

 

[Krushnak]

Edit: I forgot Xaltotun. Also been a while since I read HotD, did he actually come up with some good plan or did he just assume that Conan will die because he says so?

He just assumes Conan will die, but leaving him naked and unarmed in a dungeon with a carvinorous great ape he had some good reasons to believe he would die.

Are they arrogant villains who end up defeated because your players do something they totally didn't expect? Or do they prepare better and only a really genius plan will take them down?

Both. It all depends how the paranoia and arrogance balance out for each sorcerer. And how obvious the pc's make themselves out to be legitimate threats.

 

[LilithsThrall]

It surprises me when people talk about this. I mean, don't sorcerers in REH slay hundreds if not thousands of men in a night without ever putting their shoes on?
But because the freakin -hero- of the story is able to slay a sorcerer with a sword, sorcerers are weak?
Here's an object lesson for those of you who don't seem to get it. If the sorcerer killed the freakin' -hero- of the story as casually and dismissively as he kills the hundreds or thousands of others, the story would be short indeed. The hero kills the sorcerer every single time because the hero -must- kill the sorcerer every single time. The writer has to stretch disbelief into a pretzel to make it happen, but it has to happen.
Still, I wonder if the guy who stands there looking at his heart still beating as it lays in the sorcerer's hand despite the fact that the sorcerer never came near him has enough time left to think "wow, that sorcerer sure is a little insignificant gnat of a man!"
I wonder if the hundreds or thousands who died without a chance thought that sorcerer was weak?
I mean, you've got a sorcerer who can wrest a character's mind away from them with nary a thought, turn a man into a serville animal, again, slay an army with little effort, but because one guy gets lucky enough to kill him for the sake of the story, that means that the sorcerer is weak?
I guess I just don't get the reasoning behind that.

 

[Solmyr]

Reread the posts please. I didn't say that they are weak. I said that they seem to be arrogant and underestimate their opposition, which is ultimately what brings them down.

 

[Vortigern]

They are men of power, and there is a lot of baggage that comes with that. Ultimately it is an individual psychological question as to whether a given sorcerer should be in the 'arrogant to a fault' or 'careful schemer' category... but neither are invincible.

I will say this.

Most games I have been in tend to frequently discount the much superior knowledge and social intimidation factors of the scholar and the resultant ( should be ) advantages they bring. Throw in some divination and ... well, I find it hard to believe that your average group of pure steel and cunning style of adventurers without their own sorcerer to help them could 'get the drop' on such a sorcerer. He'd have seen some sort of vision in his lotus dream, caught the signs in his horoscopes, or been told of them by the runes/cards whatever. You don't surprise someone like that without your own mojo-man to hide you.

As for social intimidation... there are two aspects to this. One is that I think many PCs, both accustomed to high magic games and playing from a gamist perspective, tend to underplay the fear most people feel about magic in the setting. Most people are terribly, deathly, messing in their pants afraid of someone that they know is a sorcerer. And for pretty good reasons. REHs heroes that charge through sorcery are pretty much universaly described as being uncommon men both in fortitude and bravery for doing so. Gamism tends to make people react exactly the opposite however, and turn ultra aggressive on anyone that remotely looks like a hostile mage. Not that this is unlogical, it most certainly can be, but it sometimes makes me feel that that 'fear of magic' element is often quite missing from PCs.

Second in the 'sorcerers are scary SOBs' category is the social power and influence that they often wield, both as a result of their magic and as a result of being the spookiest dude around and using it to their advantage. Does your sorcerer confront the PCs on his own, in a 'classic' showdown of powerful mojo-man vs. five 'heroes'? Or does he have his own cadre of guards, a modest to monstrous size fortune, and they never know that he is their 'real' enemy because he is always acting through puppets and long-distance spells? Sure maybe one day they will find out, but what are you going to do about it? Lay siege to the crimson citadel of Tsotha? Good luck. I advise instead not making Tsotha angry. Most people don't have Conan's pure luck.

 

[LilithsThrall]

They are men of power, and there is a lot of baggage that comes with that. Ultimately it is an individual psychological question as to whether a given sorcerer should be in the 'arrogant to a fault' or 'careful schemer' category... but neither are invincible.

I will say this.

Most games I have been in tend to frequently discount the much superior knowledge and social intimidation factors of the scholar and the resultant ( should be ) advantages they bring. Throw in some divination and ... well, I find it hard to believe that your average group of pure steel and cunning style of adventurers without their own sorcerer to help them could 'get the drop' on such a sorcerer. He'd have seen some sort of vision in his lotus dream, caught the signs in his horoscopes, or been told of them by the runes/cards whatever. You don't surprise someone like that without your own mojo-man to hide you.

As for social intimidation... there are two aspects to this. One is that I think many PCs, both accustomed to high magic games and playing from a gamist perspective, tend to underplay the fear most people feel about magic in the setting. Most people are terribly, deathly, messing in their pants afraid of someone that they know is a sorcerer. And for pretty good reasons. REHs heroes that charge through sorcery are pretty much universaly described as being uncommon men both in fortitude and bravery for doing so. Gamism tends to make people react exactly the opposite however, and turn ultra aggressive on anyone that remotely looks like a hostile mage. Not that this is unlogical, it most certainly can be, but it sometimes makes me feel that that 'fear of magic' element is often quite missing from PCs.

Second in the 'sorcerers are scary SOBs' category is the social power and influence that they often wield, both as a result of their magic and as a result of being the spookiest dude around and using it to their advantage. Does your sorcerer confront the PCs on his own, in a 'classic' showdown of powerful mojo-man vs. five 'heroes'? Or does he have his own cadre of guards, a modest to monstrous size fortune, and they never know that he is their 'real' enemy because he is always acting through puppets and long-distance spells? Sure maybe one day they will find out, but what are you going to do about it? Lay siege to the crimson citadel of Tsotha? Good luck. I advise instead not making Tsotha angry. Most people don't have Conan's pure luck.

I think you make good points and to build on them..
1.) Sorcerers forethought, smarts, and knowledge should be better represented in the game. Personally, I'd go as far as to give them extra fate chips at the cost of corruption to represent this.
2.) "Fear of sorcery" should be better represented. Menacing aura is a step in the right direction, but, ultimately there comes a time when a -2 penalty is pretty insignificant. There should be some combat manuevers akin to those starting on page 204 which work off of the intimidate and bluff skills

 

[Korppis]

You wantt to catch them with their pants down?
Better ambush them at the outhouse :lol: