Campaign Help Please: ISA and Centauri

[Gargoyle117]

Campaign Help Please: ISA and Centauri

Hello All. I just got in to ACTA a couple of weeks ago. Still don’t have any models, but, thanks to ubertechie here on the forums, that should be changing soon.

My friend has chosen to start with the Centauri and I have selected the ISA. We rolled up a campaign map and went through fleet selection.

At the beginning of turn 5, the Centauri are nearly wiped out. They have no significant strategic targets and the lower priorities of their fleet list are cleaned out. Below is a picture of where we started and what happened. I would like to know what the Centauri player could do to be more competitive. What ships should he select? Any general tactics? How can he come back in a campaign if he is making ~15RR a turn, with a small fleet, facing an opponent who makes ~25RR a turn and a sizeable fleet list?

ISA List:

Raid
4x Whitestar

Battle
4x WSC-2

War:
2x Whitestar Carrier

Centauri List:

Patrol
8x Haven

Raid
1x Balvarin

Battle
4x Primus

War
1x Octurion

There is more to the list, but I forget the rest.

After 4 turns and only two engagements, the Centauri fleet is nearly decimated. We rolled 2 Ambush missions one with ISA as defender at Skirmish priority and the other with Centauri as the defender at War priority. The Centauri player only brought 3 FAP to defend the second Ambush. The ISA destroyed every ship as they ran, unable to properly bring their fore arcs to bear. There was not even any significant damage to any ISA ship.

The Centauri player is more than a little disheartened by this. He seems to forget the stand off fleet battle we had for our intro, where the Centauri handily defeated the ISA. This time he thought he was balancing the need to win and the desire not to loose his good ships by only bringing 3 FAP to the Ambush (as the defender) which resulted in a rather painful defeat.

Does anyone know how they would go about coming back from behind in this case? How would they win against the seemingly unstoppable ISA? I am even willing to allow him to take 10 FAP at Battle, effectively an entirely fresh fleet. What ships would you take?

Thank you all for any input. I’d really like to turn this into a positive experience for both of us.

 

[H]

ok then, the first point I will make is in his fleet selection. I am not a Centauri player, but I am a Campaign player, He went top heavy, although you say their were other ships you can't remember. 4 battleships is to many for a campaign really, you need to pad out at lower and mid level. he needs to look at Ships like the Corvan and Prefect, they are very powerful for their level, and can usually outnumber the ISA.
The Second Ambush also messed him up, trying to run from an ISA fleet isn't easy, in fact it is suicide as the Whitestar is so fast. His tactics let him down badly, but it's a learning experiance. He really needed to field everything, and be prepare to sacrifice a few to gain some benefit from the situation. As it was, with an even FAp he stood little chance if all he did was run. Remind him of all stop, all stop and pivot, It does take several turns, but if the ships survive, they can then return fire and relieve the pressure.

As for his current situation, without knowing what ships he has available, it's difficult to say, one crushing victory over the ISA would bring him back into it, or rather, bring you down to his level. Tell him not to give up hope, the Centauri are an excleent fleet, and in the right situations can be almost unbeatable

 

[Obsidian]

I'd have to agree with the top heavy assesment, but more than that he is playing against one of the Centauri's chief foils. Centauri aren't real big on dealing with things that can dodge so the ISA as a whole represent a huge problem for them. They also have a tough time with things that can get into their rear arcs. So again, the fast and highly manueverable ships of the ISA are really going to give them problems.

In terms of getting back into the campaign I would urge him to look at skirmish and riad level ships only for reinforcements. The Prefect is an amazing ship and a few maximus' wouldn't hurt either. Antoher big boost would be several wings of Rutarians. They can keep up with the white stars for the most part and have stealth to protect them. If you want to give him a "gift" to keep him in the campaign, give him a free Liati or two. They were designed to take out white stars so in theory it should make a difference. Could be a double edged sword though. I've yet to field one, but have heard that they don't live up to their War level rating. Maybe try one out as part of a larger fleet in a battle to see how it fairs, and if it doesn't do that well house rule it to Battle level.

 

[Gargoyle117]

Thanks to both of you. This is a good start.

I had tried to explain to him that one good battle could turn things around relatively quickly. I think that is the beauty of the random priority level system.

The stats for the Liati alone are quite frightening to me. The Advanced Battle Laser alone is quite frightening. The Prefect is also very intiidating to me.

By the end of Turn 4, I had all my starting ships, but had also picked up a Victory (hey it's a toy and I'm new to the game) and one more Whitestar Carrier. My fleet is also a bit top heavy now. I may go back and snag some Whitestars and WSC-2s.

All Stop and Pivot would have worked beautifully. His deployment zone was completely within the 12" gravity well of a Gas Giant. The zone also hapened to be covered by a dust cloud. There was a chance, but between running and his ships getting split up, the ISA made it look too easy.

I'd like to see some more tactics. It may sound better coming from some other players as suggestions, rather than me saying how the fleet should be played.

Thanks guys.

 

[Sulfurdown]

If you want to give him a "gift" to keep him in the campaign, give him a free Liati or two. They were designed to take out white stars so in theory it should make a difference. Could be a double edged sword though. I've yet to field one, but have heard that they don't live up to their War level rating.

I've fielded two in a short battle against the vorlons, hoping for a flanking maneuver. That was my error as they tended to be crippled and skeleton crewed in a single shot from a Lt Cruiser. 95% poor tactics. I think it really ends up being an extension of the problems with the Vorchan/Demos as it seems to be underpowered versus it's own level and out maneuvered by sheer numbers of lower PL ships. Strikes me as a wolf-pack ship that's too expensive to form a pack.


It terms of Campaigns vs the ISA, I'd agree with a lot of points going into Corvan and Maximus. Though I'd favor several Raziks to try and clear out the WS fighters when those are brought out. WSF are much more expensive (8 times as expensive) but have an equatable dogfight. Once you've cleared them work in some Rutarians to hunt down the white stars proper.

 

[Itkovian]

The Liati criipples very quickly if hit (and with a 5+ dodge it WILL get hit) For the Centauri Maximus' are a must against the ISA hull 6 and an interceptor means that a standard Whitestar might as well not bother firing it's molecular pulsar (unless there is more than one firing) and even the neutron laser is 50/50 to hit.

Darkners are horribly vulnerble but well armed and quick, useful as a screen or to cover the rear of bigger ships. Prefects are hard to take out and Sullusts can make a horrible mess with 4 dice of beam.

And, above all, fighters, and lots of em, use Sentri's to clear away Nials and WS Fighters (Gang up) then sit in teh rear arcof the WHitestars where they are defenceless, OK they can out run you, but if they are doing that then it forces them to go in one direction for a while.

Balvarin carriers, yes they take a while to launc but they can get 6 more fighters out there and the carrier itself takes a lot of killing.

Tertius are useful too (so much so both the Tertius and Prefect are two of the most moaned about Centauri ships)

BTW I play ISA mostly (Sometimes Narn or EA) and this is based on what worries me.

 

[CZuschlag]

Just a sanity check:

Make sure you are using the correct Armageddon-updated White Star. The one published in Sky Full of Stars has been redacted as unbalanced and replaced with a version with lower dodge and reduced firepower. The changes are a HUGE deal. The White Star in SFoS is -- in my opinion -- broken. The Armageddon changes (in the FAQ at back of the book, I believe, in rather unremarkable print) are critical.

 

[Gargoyle117]

Thanks for checking CZuschlag. I did catch the fine print in Armageddon and beyond that I consult several of the shipviewers that people here have made. I do not get any stats from the books, since they are all suspect.

Centauri ships in general frighten me. They can take a good deal more damage than I feel I can dish out much of the time. Some of the ships that have been suggested here are enough to make me worry for my poor little whitestars and the expensive fighters. Frankly the beams mounted on many of these ships make me jealous.

So would everyone say that the Centauri are relatively balanced vs the ISA? It looks like the Centauri have pleanty of options to be able to form a good fleet against whatever the oposition may be.

 

[Commador Q]

Fighters have to be one of the best ways to deal with White Stars. There are ways that White stars can deal with fighters but that requires them to stop focusing on you capitle ships. Also remember that fighters can support one another, this will help protect your attack fighters from his nails and WS fighters.

The other thing that dooms White Stars is massed fire. Try to get as many ships as possible fireing at one WS that way the superior number of AD can mitigate the effectivness of it's dodge.

If your enemy is good at getting into your rear ark, try putting two warships nose to nose, that way they cover each other's rear arks, and produce a nice kill zone in the middle, if you can catch a WS inside. Chances are this will mostly just ensure that your oponent positiuones his ships on your broadsides, but sometimes you'll be able to catch an enemy in the kill zone, and the ret of the time, they probably would have done the same thing anyway.

One thing that's tempting but, should never be done against the ISA is splitting fire amoungst multiple WS. If there ate 2 WS in one ark, just pick one and fire at it, if you try to destroy them both you'll end up wasting firepower as chances are the'll both be damaged, but not destroied and will repair a fair portion of the damage over the next couple turns.

And finaly, if you can get a WS in close you can do some reasonable damage with anti-fighter weapons. they don't pack as much of a punch as your main guns but they wouln't be dodgable.

 

[Davesaint]

Thanks for checking CZuschlag. I did catch the fine print in Armageddon and beyond that I consult several of the shipviewers that people here have made. I do not get any stats from the books, since they are all suspect.

Centauri ships in general frighten me. They can take a good deal more damage than I feel I can dish out much of the time. Some of the ships that have been suggested here are enough to make me worry for my poor little whitestars and the expensive fighters. Frankly the beams mounted on many of these ships make me jealous.

So would everyone say that the Centauri are relatively balanced vs the ISA? It looks like the Centauri have pleanty of options to be able to form a good fleet against whatever the oposition may be.

It's hard to say really. That's the problem with the ISA. If someone running the ISA rolls hot with his dodges and the beam, they slaughter just about everyone. The Centauri are a pretty good match to the ISA as their beams can "roll up" on the whitestars as they are only hull 5.

I would say the 2 races that have given me the most angst when I have been playing ISA are Dilgar and Early EA. The Anit-Fighter missle makes things a wee bit difficult for all of those whitestars.


Dave

 

[Celisasu]

I'm also going to point out that the Centauri list has 8 Havens. The Haven is considered by just about everyone to be the single worst ship in the game in any fleet bar none. Some of those Havens should be Corvans and others should be skirmish ships. The only reason to have any is if you've rolled up that escort duty on other tables. The Octurion is unnecessary and would've been better when replaced with some Raid level ships(which the Centauri have quite a few good choices on).

 

[Davesaint]

I'm also going to point out that the Centauri list has 8 Havens. The Haven is considered by just about everyone to be the single worst ship in the game in any fleet bar none. Some of those Havens should be Corvans and others should be skirmish ships. The only reason to have any is if you've rolled up that escort duty on other tables. The Octurion is unnecessary and would've been better when replaced with some Raid level ships(which the Centauri have quite a few good choices on).

While I agree that the Haven is a really bad ship, is it really that much worse than the Kutai? I mean you do get two of them for every Kutai. :wink:


Dave

 

[Celisasu]

I'm also going to point out that the Centauri list has 8 Havens. The Haven is considered by just about everyone to be the single worst ship in the game in any fleet bar none. Some of those Havens should be Corvans and others should be skirmish ships. The only reason to have any is if you've rolled up that escort duty on other tables. The Octurion is unnecessary and would've been better when replaced with some Raid level ships(which the Centauri have quite a few good choices on).

While I agree that the Haven is a really bad ship, is it really that much worse than the Kutai? I mean you do get two of them for every Kutai. :wink:


Dave

I don't see the Kutai on the Centauri list so didn't see a need to bring it up. :lol:

Another piece of advice for the Centauri player though. Don't buy a Kutai either. The Haven is worse.....but that's like saying having your brains splattered with a baseball bat with a nail is worse than having them splattered by a baseball bat without a nail.

I'd suggest getting some Sullusts for Raid level. You could go for Prefects too although I personally see them as cheesy(ditto for the Tertius). Centauri choices at skirmish kind of suck but a Maximus or two might be wise for patrol and skirmish level engagements so that you at least have something other than Corvans(which while a kickass scout probably aren't going to win you a battle on their own). If nothing else it's a Hull 6 ship with 1 Interceptor at Skirmish with a decent amount of TL dice for when it does get into range. The Vorchan while the iconic ship of the Centauri is below average and not worth taking. The Primus is a good ship but four of them might be a bit too much.

I should note that I like the Altarian and it's variants although due to the presence of the Sullust and more importantly the Prefect it's unlikely they'll ever see play. On the other hand you might have fun with them and the other players might enjoy actually seeing Centauri ships other than Corvans, Prefects, Sullusts, and Tertiuses(or the Primus for groups that have banned the Tertius). And I'll repeat once more, the Octurion is a waste. It's not a bad ship so much as an unnecessary ship. Two Primus are always better than an Octurion.

 

[WickedE]

And I'll repeat once more, the Octurion is a waste. It's not a bad ship so much as an unnecessary ship. Two Primus are always better than an Octurion.

I wouldn't say that, really. The Octurion serves a great role in the Centauri fleet as a wedge; the thing can drive down a center line and unload in every arc with at least two weapons while your support ships pick targets and take shots accordingly. The Primus can't do this at all. All the Primus is, basically, is a hunter. It's a tough ship, but the 8 inch secondaries are too short to serve the same role, so basically all it does is concentrate on a single target with its massive beam and take it out.

The Octurion does this too, but with a longer range beam, coupled with ten and twelve inch secondaries that are Twin-linked or AP, Double Damage. It can serve the same role as the Primus, but the secondaries, again, give it a better wedge role rather than hunter.

 

[locarno24]

Generally when picking a campaign fleet concentrate on buying ships at one-two priority levels below the campaing as you get best value. Buy battle and war ships with resource points as a warship costs little more to purchase than a battleship.

For Centauri against EA this means the Maximus, Vorchat (best of a bad lot amongst the Vorchan variants), sullust, prefect and elutarian (no interceptors on white stars, so torpedo racks are a nice option...)

How can he come back in a campaign if he is making ~15RR a turn, with a small fleet, facing an opponent who makes ~25RR a turn and a sizeable fleet list?

Short answer.......erm.
Try and keep the priorities high with the fleet list you've got - if you let small games happen, you get your battlecruisers picked off one by one. Centauri laser ships need to be fielded in small groups to cover one another.

He was a bit screwed when a War-level ambush came up.

You never have to field the full points values, by the way - you could sacrifice a single haven patrol boat and save your fleet for a fair fight....

 

[tneva82]

By the end of Turn 4, I had all my starting ships, but had also picked up a Victory (hey it's a toy and I'm new to the game)

If you don't want to dishearten him more do not field that one when you can use hyperspace. That ship alone can then probably tear him apart(easily into rear of centauri...Centauri do not cope well with enemy at back...)

I may go back and snag some Whitestars and WSC-2s.

White stars are good

Can't help with anti-ISA tactics though. So far centauri has been kicked badly in our games as well...

However he should look at ships that are manouverable ones. Several of those spread around and if ISA slips behind some ships those can then bear their weapons against. White stars can run short of crew quickly by repeated pounding. Can't remember any suitable ships from centauri list. Vorlons gave me worries though with their 90 degree turns and staggered deployment. Where-ever I went somebody was striking me back anyway...

 

[tneva82]

Fighters have to be one of the best ways to deal with White Stars.

Oh yeah. Fighters are bad. They are bugger to deal off if your nials get shot out(or you have too few of them...). Though centauri don't have all that good fighters...

The other thing that dooms White Stars is massed fire. Try to get as many ships as possible fireing at one WS that way the superior number of AD can mitigate the effectivness of it's dodge.

Plus you'll get ship decrewed faster and can reach crippled point fast. Concentration of firepower is crucial. Once white star hits crippled point it is almost certain to lose SOME handy trait(adaptive armour, dodge, flight computer). After that said white star is almost as good as history.

but not destroied and will repair a fair portion of the damage over the next couple turns.

Well it's not the damage per se but crew :lol: Apart from cases of white star blown in turn 95%+ of my lost white stars have been because crew died. Of course I keep shuffling my damaged white stars into safe positions as much as I can and put healthy white stars into danger which might affect it.

 

[Gargoyle117]

Good tactic tneva82. I really need to add some more Whitestars to my fleet and make better use of them. I have noticed as I look over the ISA and played 3 battles now, that most of the ISA ships will decrew very quickly. It seems that Whitestars are just free for the taking after a few turns. Seems like a bad plan on the ISA's part, but that's just flavor text.

I did not intend to use the Victory unless absolutely needed. Now I will be sure not to use it with hyperspace. I really like things to be sporting and challenging.

When I look at the Centauri list, it seems like most of the ships will shred my poor little white stars. Hopefully that is partially true, so we can have some better games. It seems like the trick is to deploy them together, keep them facing forwards and covering eachother. Last time, using my WSF's, I picked off every Haven as it strayed too far from the 4" range of the other Havens.

Thanks to everyone fot their suggestions so far. I have not looked at the Centauri fleet list that much, so your experiences with the ships are a big help. It is also good to hear some general ideas about Campaign strategy. This is all still very new to both players, but I know I am loving it so far.

Keep the ideas coming. Thanks all.

 

[tneva82]

I have noticed as I look over the ISA and played 3 battles now, that most of the ISA ships will decrew very quickly.

Too bad self-repair doesn't produce clone ranger crews :lol:

I did not intend to use the Victory unless absolutely needed. Now I will be sure not to use it with hyperspace. I really like things to be sporting and challenging.

Victory is nice and fine ship without doubt, though obviously needs bigger battle. And if opponent is experienced then hyperspace jump is just nice challenge but if you two are starting over and centauri player is already disheartened a bit that could prove nasty. Check this report to see what happened:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22952&highlight=

Albeit that was with tournament list instead of armageddon but armageddon upgrade, while making victory harder to use, boosted it nicely. That adaptive armour is just plain NASTY for ship with as high DC as victory has...

That victory pretty much won the game me single handedly Albeit there was luck with initial salvo but even then dealing with victory at behind fleet is just hard.

Similary WSC-2(or even white stars) in hyperspace are just plain nasty. Remind your friend to beware of those...

When I look at the Centauri list, it seems like most of the ships will shred my poor little white stars.

Oh I wouldn't worry TOO much. White stars are tougher targets than appear. I have flown one through front beam of shadow omega(and nemesis) and have had ship survive to fight again before. Just don't push your luck too far :lol: So far only Vorlons have blown my ships up for good in one round.

Things get dicier when you have multiple ships bearing down on white stars. Which brings for reminder: Concentration of firepower! If you spread fire evenly against white stars you are going to find yourself in biiiig trouble. Dodge+adaptive armour+self repair will keep ships intact for long enough to tear fleet apart. If you concentrate and take out WS or two then a) white stars lose more in initiave sinks(=easier to get them on sight) b) ISA firepower is significantly reduced. Each WS has only 1AD neutron laser and that's the main weapon for them...Which brings hint for ISA player: Concentrate the firepower! I would say atleast 3 white stars against one target you want to hurt much. You don't need whole fleet to come to bear as those SAP TD precise beams are just plain nasty(that precise is just plain nasty) but if you try it with 1-2 you will easily find missing with your only beam attack...

 

[Locutus9956]

One word. Liatis. It may be somewhat sucky for a War level ship most of the time but they EXCEL at killing whitestars. Oh and lots and lots of Raziks go a long way to ridding the sky of anonying buzzy things like Nials and Whitestar fighters.