Bypassing ships security, 3 runs, and over a railing @Zero-g
- Thread starter runescience
- Start date
)Assuming that the PCs aren't coming tooled up with equivalent TL specialist thieves' gear and enough time to use it, anyway.
If they're trying to break into a ship 'just because' then they'll fail unless, as discussed, they can either physically bypass the door or con their way on board.
If they're breaking in because they're a group of professional ne'er-do-wells who've been contracted to do so, I'd like to think they'd have spent time and money on the appropriate kit and finding out how to get at the diagnostics mode for an LSP hatch control. Otherwise they deserve everything they get.
nats
Banded Mongoose
According to classic traveller the roll to get through an iris valve is the characters strength or less with DMs such as -4 using a rod to force the door, -2 if dex 10+, +3 if in vacc suit, -2 if ships power is off, +8 if locked (on opposite side or by central computer). So for an average strength character trying to get in a locked ship in dock with a prybar you are talking about a 4- throw on 2d6 - pretty easy.
DFW said:
Well, according to the classic Traders & Gunboats, that's actually not the case. Most designs there use dual iris valves as the airlock. They're also good enough to act as the missile tube locks on Leviathan. Rock from Expedition to Zhodane also has iris valve airlocks.
As does every design in Mongoose Traveller basic rules.
However, nats isn't quite right about the roll to force one. From Traders & Gunboats:
"Throw 9+ to force open a closed iris valve, DM +1 if strength 10+, +2 if dexterity 10+, -3 if the person is in a vacc suit, +2 if the ship's power is off, -8 if locked."
In fact, even with all positive modifiers, it is impossible to make the roll if the valve is locked and you are wearing a vacc suit.
So what if they used an emp device to shut down the ship and before it can reactivate used an outside system access to dump in an override say causing it to recongise a factory setting for example something like a simple password such as "0000" or "1234" as a viable means of entering the ship without setting off alarms because it would then register as an official part of the crew?
The emp would be th tough part since it should be shielded against that type of attack, but once landed wouldn't that make it vulnerable to an atack similar to that unless they leave someone aboard to keep watch?
It could even be installed by an unwary crewmember who is given something they think is completely safe but unaware it introduces a sub-routine that can be used later on to separate a section of the ship from the usual security protocols allowing access from the outside and even show up as unremarkable unless someone is present and has a reason to wonder whats going on in that section as the time.
For the player that might indeed be tough, even tougher is if the dm then promptly prevents a player scheme from working when they used the same scheme and had it work by gm fiat even thought the players' make a point of figuring out how it was done to prevent it working again and have to use it as part of an adventure...
Sorry mixing an entirely different game genre there, so unless they have teleport tech/psion available it should be REALLY tough yes?
Still that leaves plenty of sneaky ways around that, anyone care to suggest a few ways to get around this?
You know as dumb as having a cargo loaded aboard ship thats hiding armed personnel or at least cryo suspended personnel who wake up mid voyage and either put back their personal equipment together from the rest of the cargo or use their natural talents to disable the crew?
The emp would be th tough part since it should be shielded against that type of attack, but once landed wouldn't that make it vulnerable to an atack similar to that unless they leave someone aboard to keep watch?
It could even be installed by an unwary crewmember who is given something they think is completely safe but unaware it introduces a sub-routine that can be used later on to separate a section of the ship from the usual security protocols allowing access from the outside and even show up as unremarkable unless someone is present and has a reason to wonder whats going on in that section as the time.
For the player that might indeed be tough, even tougher is if the dm then promptly prevents a player scheme from working when they used the same scheme and had it work by gm fiat even thought the players' make a point of figuring out how it was done to prevent it working again and have to use it as part of an adventure...
Sorry mixing an entirely different game genre there, so unless they have teleport tech/psion available it should be REALLY tough yes?
Still that leaves plenty of sneaky ways around that, anyone care to suggest a few ways to get around this?
You know as dumb as having a cargo loaded aboard ship thats hiding armed personnel or at least cryo suspended personnel who wake up mid voyage and either put back their personal equipment together from the rest of the cargo or use their natural talents to disable the crew?
Hopeless said:
Sure, IF the system used TL 7 type mem instead of crystal AND the designers had a low enough IQ to allow reprogramming/write ability directly from the outside "keypad" rather than from the "inside".
But, if you are going to have something that is not designed by competent engineers, don't bother spending Cr at all...
DFW said:
Read the task again. If the ship's power is on and the valve is locked, it IS impossible for a "puny" human to force one open. Unless you can somehow roll a 14 on 2D6...
One assumes that airlock and other external valves are routinely and automatically locked while in flight.
The task only allows you to force an unlocked valve, or to give a slim chance of forcing a locked one on an unpowered ship if you have extreme stats (and aren't in a vacc suit).
Geez, DFW, is it THAT hard for you to admit you were wrong about iris valves being used as airlocks? The facts show that CT always used them in this role.
(Note I have no argument with your opinion that hatches are better - that's your opinion.)
DFW said:
I'm just curious as to why you ignore the established fact that Traveller ships actually have iris valve airlocks, in direct conflict with your assertion that they do not. Wouldn't it be MORE logical to argue that hull iris valves must be heavier duty ones that the "force open" rule does not apply to?
Anyway, who says a valve is weak because it can be forced by a strong man? I can't lift a car, but if the handbrake is off and the gear is in neutral, I can manage to push one (eventually). Opening the valve is the person pushing against the closing mechanism, not ripping it apart with their bare hands. If the power's down and the door's unlocked and you're really buff, you may be able to manage it. That's really all that task is saying.
More to the point, it depends how something is locked closed.
I can open the breech on a rifle (fairly) easily. The pressure released by a cartridge full of propellant, which exerts a force many times my strength, cannot - because it cannot interact with the locking mechanism in a sufficiently complex manner.
I'm not saying that a simple draw-bolt is all that's going to be on the outside of the hull of a starship, but the hatch isn't necessarily impossible to force with a reasonably easy-to-obtain degree of mechanical assistance.
Throw in a 'taking your time' +DM and a task chain to insert some sort of forcing mechanism (handheld ram-and-wedge or similar) and the roll can get easier. Still not if you're in a vacc suit, obviously.
The problem with that is that if you've used an EMP to lobotomize the ship's computer, then you've essentially just stolen 100+ dTons of inert metal.
Getting malware onto the ship's computer is a fair idea. It works now, and there's no reason it shouldn't work in the future, since Agents will increase in complexity with TL to match the victim. The trick is getting it onto the computer in the first place, which generally will require some sort of 'human' element (like a guy in the port authority who can piggyback it onto the navigational downloads).
Frankly, a psion is cheating, but it is a very effective option. No ship can be expected to be secure against someone with teleport, microkinesis, or similar abilities.
And, ultimately, nothing is ever designed for perfect security. As stated repeatedly, you can create more-or-less perfect security today, but people don't, especially for 'civillian' vehicles. Engines and power supplies are accessible via maintenance panels (the bonnet). 'Keys' are a signal that's only as complex as it needs to be - hence why you can sometimes find that your keyfob opens the car parked next to you. Yes, at TL12 you could fit smart-encrypted biometric everything. But unless human character changes drastically, I can assure you that most people won't, because, as said, it's 'too much trouble'.
And as a result, someone will be sitting in the next hangar with a computer, and will snag the key-code out of the ether.
I can open the breech on a rifle (fairly) easily. The pressure released by a cartridge full of propellant, which exerts a force many times my strength, cannot - because it cannot interact with the locking mechanism in a sufficiently complex manner.
I'm not saying that a simple draw-bolt is all that's going to be on the outside of the hull of a starship, but the hatch isn't necessarily impossible to force with a reasonably easy-to-obtain degree of mechanical assistance.
Throw in a 'taking your time' +DM and a task chain to insert some sort of forcing mechanism (handheld ram-and-wedge or similar) and the roll can get easier. Still not if you're in a vacc suit, obviously.
The problem with that is that if you've used an EMP to lobotomize the ship's computer, then you've essentially just stolen 100+ dTons of inert metal.
Getting malware onto the ship's computer is a fair idea. It works now, and there's no reason it shouldn't work in the future, since Agents will increase in complexity with TL to match the victim. The trick is getting it onto the computer in the first place, which generally will require some sort of 'human' element (like a guy in the port authority who can piggyback it onto the navigational downloads).
Frankly, a psion is cheating, but it is a very effective option. No ship can be expected to be secure against someone with teleport, microkinesis, or similar abilities.
And, ultimately, nothing is ever designed for perfect security. As stated repeatedly, you can create more-or-less perfect security today, but people don't, especially for 'civillian' vehicles. Engines and power supplies are accessible via maintenance panels (the bonnet). 'Keys' are a signal that's only as complex as it needs to be - hence why you can sometimes find that your keyfob opens the car parked next to you. Yes, at TL12 you could fit smart-encrypted biometric everything. But unless human character changes drastically, I can assure you that most people won't, because, as said, it's 'too much trouble'.
And as a result, someone will be sitting in the next hangar with a computer, and will snag the key-code out of the ether.
nats
Banded Mongoose
rinku said:
Yeah but I see this as requiring updating as if you look at Safari Ship it states that you need to throw strength or less to open with the DMs as I stated. Probably was changed from the requ in Supp 7 when they realised it would be impossible for a Vacc Suited char to gain entry via a locked hatch.
Of course if you were trying to do in in zero-g theres no way you would get through as you would get another +4 DM. Although if you were in a standard docking tunnel at the time this may not apply (assume thye have G plates in those?). Anyway I would just blow it up as in Star Wars - far more impressive and would take out some defenders into the bargain. I know it says gunfire will only make them close more but a good breaching charge would definitely do the trick.
nats said:
Oh, okay. Didn't think to check Safari Ship. I'm a little dubious about those rules; according to that one it's easier to force the hatch if the power is on or if you're wearing a Vacc suit, which suggests to me they've *attempted* to modify the Traders & Gunboat rule to be similar to the one presented for forcing sliding doors, but made a couple of typos. It makes sense to me that it would be harder to force if the power were on or if the person trying to pry it open were in a suit, so I'd reverse the sign on those two modifiers.
In MGT terms, how about this:
Open an unlocked iris valve: Very Difficult (-4) Str or Dex roll, 1-6 minutes. The task is DM +2 if the ship's power is off, and -4 if locked. A crowbar or other solid metal rod adds DM +1 (per Situational Modifiers, p.49). External valves are more rugged and have better locking and safety mechanisms. They are a further -2 to force, and cannot be forced by hand at all if locked.
YMMV
