Broken New Ramming Speed! Rules

[H]

oh please, leave out the it fits the show crap would you. Boresighted whitestars fit the show but we all know how that goes. The argument is only used when someone wants to justify something, then ignored when they want something else.

Was that comment aimed at me or Burger Hiff? I sort of agree with you but to be honest I do think the game should at least TRY and fit the show (I just happen to think ramming being extremely rare doesnt do so!)

it was not aimed at any specific person, though the playtester who used it set me off! (and I hadn't even read your last post when i typed it!)
I agree, the game should fit the show as much as balance permits, unfortunately other people have very different ideas, and alas they often tend to be the people controlling the design of the game.

 

[Locutus9956]

Oh for the record I've voted yes as the porposed change originally suggested in this post is clearly broken beyond words (as if ACTA needed to make swarm fleets any more attractive over big ships already.... )

 

[Burger]

It fits the show and makes it rare enough in the game to be interesting.

Thats the thing though it's NOT rare in the show when you think about it, is it? Seriously almost every time in the show we see a ship get 'crippled' it rams (or at least starts to ram only to have it's target blown out of it's path) except when it's totally crippled beyond having any engine capability or if theres a special plot twist like sheridan nuking the black star.

Cases in point:

Sinclairs starfury, crippled by minbari, solution? 'Set full velocity ram'

EAS Churchill, crippled by Clarks forces, solution? RAM!!!!

EAS Agamemmnon - All power to engines, give me ramming speed.

Shadow Scout in 'Into the Fire' crippled by Whitestar, solution? Ram!

Narn fighters vs shadow fighters, ok so not crippled but cant escape, RAM!!!

I'm sure theres more examples but I cant think of them off the top of my head but if anyone can think of further times in the show when a ship was crippled and DIDNT ram then I'd love to hear it!

I never said it was rare in the show
I said it fits the show... in all of your examples, the ramming ship is crippled except the Frazi but that was extenuating circumstances. It needs to be rare in the game, because it gets silly and boring otherwise. You are right though, removing the requirement to not be skeleton crewed would be good. Being crippled and able to get to the target (with your half speed, even a bonus 50% doesn't do much, your final speed is still 75% normal... minus any crits you took on the way to getting crippled, and you've only got 1/45 turn) and the CQ checks is enough difficulty to make it rare enough in the game.

 

[H]

tell that to my drakh Mothership who took a Kaliva in the face!

 

[Burger]

Oi, Drakh Mothership who took a Kaliva in the face: "it's quite hard to pull off"

The manouver that is, not the Kaliva...

 

[Da Boss]

making it first be crippled seems fine - however I would like the Vorlons and Shadows to be able to do it as well............not sure of the best way?

 

[Burger]

Yeah, Shadow Scout does do it in the show after all.
Maybe when they have less than one quarter damage remianing?

 

[McKickaha]

Da Boss - The concept of a self sacrificing Shadow does not seem right to me. Certainly Kosh, on the Vorlon side, did so in the show.

From a "game" perspective howver I agree that there should be the same basic, (or at least as basic as ramming as a last ditch option), tactical possibilities for all.

 

[McKickaha]

Burger - yeah - Forgot about the shadow scout trying to ram the whitestar.

(My apologies Da Boss)

 

[Davesaint]

Ramming without being Crippled (or at least Skeleton Crewed) really goes against the flavour of the show, not to mention is open to spectacular abuse with ramming fleets!

At least if it's rare, even if it is still really powerful then it will not be seen often (and fits in with the show).

If it is not seriously restrictive, then someone will run the fleet of 40 tethys around ramming every war and armageddon level ship they can find.


Dave

 

[Burger]

If it is not seriously restrictive, then someone will run the fleet of 40 tethys around ramming every war and armageddon level ship they can find.

Sho'Kov would be better... 2/45, speed 12, agile and 12 damage points!

 

[Locutus9956]

frankly 40 tethys would likely do more damage if they just openned fire anyway Especially the beam ones.....

But thats another discussion. As noted I thik the CQ required could maybe be dropped to 8 or 9 but I ABSOLUTELY think you should still be able to ram when skeleton crewed. The solution seems obvious to me, make ramming it's own specific thing rather than just another special order (like scout locks or launching fighters so you can still do it while skeleton crewed or suffering a 'no special orders' crit but still has other restrictions).

Or you could just rule it that ships can attempt to ram once theyre under 25% of their starting hit points thus allowing vorlons and shadows to do it too. Personally Id actually be more than happy to let a shadow or vorlon ship blow themselves up to take out one of mine

 

[CZuschlag]

Frankly, if ramming were any easier, I think Earforce would have killed more than one Sharlin in the EA-Minbari War by ramming alone, let alone the major damage they would have done at Battle of the Line.

We have a play mechanic here that is rare, suitably cinematic, and hard enough to pull off (normally --- failed Skin Dancing rolls are completely separate cheese that should be cut!) that they are balanced as-is without introducing a new, needless, cheeseball tactic.

In Gaming Sense, this makes No Sense. Strongly Oppose.

 

[Triggy]

oh please, leave out the it fits the show crap would you. Boresighted whitestars fit the show but we all know how that goes. The argument is only used when someone wants to justify something, then ignored when they want something else.

Was that comment aimed at me or Burger Hiff? I sort of agree with you but to be honest I do think the game should at least TRY and fit the show (I just happen to think ramming being extremely rare doesnt do so!)

it was not aimed at any specific person, though the playtester who used it set me off! (and I hadn't even read your last post when i typed it!)
I agree, the game should fit the show as much as balance permits, unfortunately other people have very different ideas, and alas they often tend to be the people controlling the design of the game.

That'd be me then

I really don't see where you're coming from with this tirade against the playtesters. I know you think we all suck in most ways about testing the game but I've seen little to back this up. The few things that either slip the net or aren't to your satisfaction are far outweighed by the stuff that does work.

When stuff isn't popular we look to change it. Skin Dancing will change, Narn G'Quan beams getting better, Centauri were de-lasered (mostly), Jump Point bombs made harder, FAPs are being changed, etc. Then you're left with the few remaining things like White Star and G'Quan boresights, Shadow Omega weapons fits, the existence of the Psi Corps fleet list that are all debatable - some on fluff grounds and some of rules grounds. Personally I agree with you (and so does katadder) that White Stars should become boresighted but I can see the reasoning behind keeping it with a forward ard. I personally think the G'Quan should be boresighted as it normally fires like this in the show (yes, before you get into it, I know the exact numbers and occasions when it fires in either mode) and more importantly it fits in with the Narn fleet ethic and style.

The quote

I agree, the game should fit the show as much as balance permits

is constructive, this quote,

unfortunately other people have very different ideas, and alas they often tend to be the people controlling the design of the game.

really isn't.

 

[Da Boss]

There a number of potential abusive things to be thought through and I am sure they are now being looked at......

One worry was that as fighters are now ships you could ram a series of fighters (without being damaged),
Patrol and lower ships become manned misisles esp ships like the Sho'Kov, Jasakar, most Drazi patrol level ships.

Against certain fleets (MInbari, ISA, Vree) and certain ships (Liati), it will be better to ram than fire...........

On the other hand - i'd like to see it a bit easier - but make crippling a requirement so its not too easy -
and I really do hope that skin dancing is indeed fixed as one person in our group highlighted its stupidly cheap and easy ram............without any of the difficulty of proper ramming. I did post a comprehenisive version of skindancing as a SA - lets hope the P+P version is even better.

Hopefully the Dilgar suicide fighter will officialy become non- interceptable (like the Gaim)- although given we see Narn and I think EA fighters actually ram - maybe there should be a rule for everyone?

although it would also help if the VP for fighters was fixed aswell.

Truthfully that would be my hope for P+P - that the small (reletively) amount of problems wiht the system are fixed - rather than "exciting rules". If not in P+P then surely S+P would be a good palce for a page or two of rules amendments................

 

[l33tpenguin]

Fighters should be able to ram. Just make a requirement such as-

"Fighters can only ram if NO jump capable ships remain, or if a jump gate is available in system, all supporting ships above patrol have been destroyed."

Given that all their fleet support has been destroyed or they are totally incapable of jumping out of a system, thus becoming stranded and at the mercy of an enemy force, the logical solution is to ram.

Fighters shouldn't require an opposed CQ to ram either. They are too small and agile for an opposing ship to attempt to avoid.

In any case, regardless of it 'fitting the show' the decision to ram should be a logical one. You don't ram a perfectly good ship unless things are hopeless. That doesn't fit the show and that doesn't make sense. You MIGHT ram a perfectly good ship if things are going VERY badly. If the opponent had say 8x the PL value of ships remaining on the board. I could fully understand a single remaining patrol level ship choosing to ram in the face of a Battle or War level ship.

Also, Jump capability SHOULD be taken into account. A Blue Star, for instance, would probably just open a jump point and get out of there. It makes more sense to run and fight later than sacrifice a perfectly good ship

 

[Greg Smith]

We have had a playtest update today, and the crippled restriction is back.

 

[H]

Was that comment aimed at me or Burger Hiff? I sort of agree with you but to be honest I do think the game should at least TRY and fit the show (I just happen to think ramming being extremely rare doesnt do so!)

it was not aimed at any specific person, though the playtester who used it set me off! (and I hadn't even read your last post when i typed it!)
I agree, the game should fit the show as much as balance permits, unfortunately other people have very different ideas, and alas they often tend to be the people controlling the design of the game.

That'd be me then

I really don't see where you're coming from with this tirade against the playtesters. I know you think we all suck in most ways about testing the game but I've seen little to back this up. The few things that either slip the net or aren't to your satisfaction are far outweighed by the stuff that does work.

When stuff isn't popular we look to change it. Skin Dancing will change, Narn G'Quan beams getting better, Centauri were de-lasered (mostly), Jump Point bombs made harder, FAPs are being changed, etc. Then you're left with the few remaining things like White Star and G'Quan boresights, Shadow Omega weapons fits, the existence of the Psi Corps fleet list that are all debatable - some on fluff grounds and some of rules grounds. Personally I agree with you (and so does katadder) that White Stars should become boresighted but I can see the reasoning behind keeping it with a forward ard. I personally think the G'Quan should be boresighted as it normally fires like this in the show (yes, before you get into it, I know the exact numbers and occasions when it fires in either mode) and more importantly it fits in with the Narn fleet ethic and style.

The quote

I agree, the game should fit the show as much as balance permits

is constructive, this quote,

unfortunately other people have very different ideas, and alas they often tend to be the people controlling the design of the game.

really isn't.

I'd hardly call it a tirade. you could be being a tad defensive! I don't think you all suck, I've had some interesting discussions with you, and thoroughly enjoyed my games aginst both you and greg, not to mention tank., Alas I haven't played against any other playtesters.

I would however be interested in actually hearing the whitestar argument, I was discussing this very issue with someone today and gave my issues with the forward arc.

now then, after the day I have had I COULD have a pretty impressive tirade, but it wouldn't be all that constructive now!

 

[Foxmeister]

Narn G'Quan beams getting better

Forward arc perhaps?

I know from the conversations on this forum that a +1 AD solution has been mooted, but IMHO that won't make the G'Quan a compelling choice, so if it ends up that way in P&P I shall be disappointed.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Burger]

We have had a playtest update today, and the crippled restriction is back.

Excellent!

Any chance of putting it to Matt (if it hasn't already) that it be allowed when skeleton crewed, as an exception to no special actions when skeletoned?