Bridge tonnage discrepancy
- Thread starter Ezarhon
- Start date
Fluffy Bunny Feet
Cosmic Mongoose
Just tell any players who notice the "discrepancy" that in your Universe it is still the old way. When/if you have updated books with the ships affected corrected you can change or not.
I'm going through the adventure class book now, this is what I have found:
10 ton bridge: Stealth Scout
6 ton bridge small: Fast Luxury Transport, Express Packet, Strike Scout, Executive Yacht (with 221 tons of fuel!), Warrant Ship, (Sword Worlds) Personal Yacht, (Vargr) Stealth Runner
Easy fix, the Stealth Scout has the integrated Studio (or Captains Stateroom) with the bridge the others are treated as standard bridges (slight price increase) with no penalty for a small bridge.
mavikfelna
Cosmic Mongoose
Mav's MgT2e Starship Redesign.docx
Mavik Felna’s Mongoose Ships Update This is my attempt to look at all the Mongoose Traveller 2e ships and small craft from the Core 2022 Update, High Guard, Adventure Class Ships and Small Craft Catalogue books. I will be using the latest version of Arkanthan’s Shipyard spreadsheet found on the M...
Still working on it, but slowly getting there
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
I know you are, but I'm me!Mav's MgT2e Starship Redesign.docx
Mavik Felna’s Mongoose Ships Update This is my attempt to look at all the Mongoose Traveller 2e ships and small craft from the Core 2022 Update, High Guard, Adventure Class Ships and Small Craft Catalogue books. I will be using the latest version of Arkanthan’s Shipyard spreadsheet found on the M...docs.google.com
Still working on it, but slowly getting there
We shouldn’t have to fix these things we are paying good money for these books they should at least attempt to get the ships right for us to use. You listed 8 ships out of 60 that this change effects that over 10% and that not including the errors that were already there.
And even if you consider it an easy fix there’s no reason for this change in the first place. So far mongoose hasn’t explained at all why this was change and it something that should be explained. This whole change is unprofessional
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So the fact that GDW was unprofessional means mongoose doesn’t have to be.
No, I'm not excusing Mongoose on this point. I think the CRB table was changed for no good reason and causes problems aside from the already designed ships - 100 tons is and has always been the minimum Starship size. And it's common sense that 100 tons should be the start of a bracket for starship related stuff.
The design sequence change is the important thing here. Deckplans are secondary can survive it - my point was that deckplans have rarely stood up to much critical analysis anyway. I still tend to use the CT ones as I'm not impressed by many of the layout choices Mongoose have made, which have little to do with tonnage allocation. But all a deckplan needs to do is lay out the rooms and coridoors so that you know where things are. As tactical maps, it's usually enough to know who's in each room and if anyone is covering a particular door. Everything is at point blank range and you'll usually be moving at the speed of one section per round unless sprinting the length of an empty cargo bay. Grid squares? Needed less than most people think.
The design sequence change is the important thing here. Deckplans are secondary can survive it - my point was that deckplans have rarely stood up to much critical analysis anyway. I still tend to use the CT ones as I'm not impressed by many of the layout choices Mongoose have made, which have little to do with tonnage allocation. But all a deckplan needs to do is lay out the rooms and coridoors so that you know where things are. As tactical maps, it's usually enough to know who's in each room and if anyone is covering a particular door. Everything is at point blank range and you'll usually be moving at the speed of one section per round unless sprinting the length of an empty cargo bay. Grid squares? Needed less than most people think.
I absolutely agree with this in every way.
This I have found to depend upon the group and the campaign. I’ve played in a game where the deck plan was just a rough drawing done in the cafeteria at jr high by the GM at lunch (our scout courier back in the 70s was a trip) In other campaigns with other people we needed an exacting deck plan for some of the things that group did. It really depends and truthfully most of the time minor things are not a issue but than you have thing like the harrier deck plan
mavikfelna
Cosmic Mongoose
Honestly, the 2024 table looks more correct to me. The flow of the chart is consistent without the odd jar at 100 tons. Just personal preference but I like the chart.
The chart would be fine if they added ‘Jump drive ships have a minimum of 10dt for standard bridges and 6dt for small’ they done similar things for drives and it would even make sense that a j7mp drive ship has to have a bigger bridges
Fluffy Bunny Feet
Cosmic Mongoose
It does make the chart more consistent in its pattern. The old one always annoyed me which is why I had already made the change for myself. There are others for whom such a pattern break is really really jarring.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
It is a huge change with tradition.
100t was the dividing line of needing a bridge large enough to be a jump ship - minimum 20t - and is also the distinction between small craft and ship.
To make 101 the new dividing line for bridge size is an odd decision since it now effectively lumps 100t ships into the smallcraft category.
A rule that a non-starship can use the lower bridge size at no penalty would have been better...
100t was the dividing line of needing a bridge large enough to be a jump ship - minimum 20t - and is also the distinction between small craft and ship.
To make 101 the new dividing line for bridge size is an odd decision since it now effectively lumps 100t ships into the smallcraft category.
A rule that a non-starship can use the lower bridge size at no penalty would have been better...
Fluffy Bunny Feet
Cosmic Mongoose
I thought huge breaks were part of the tradition? GURPS, D20, dTons from tons, computers not the size of rooms.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Default size of the bridge for a given tonnage, has to do with the effective command control, communications, and so on, of the primary hull.
In theory, small bridge of six tonnes on a two hundred tonne primary hull, hundred five tonne jump drive for four thousand parsec tonnes performance, four hundred tonne drop tank, and thirty four hundred tonnes of external cargo.
In theory, small bridge of six tonnes on a two hundred tonne primary hull, hundred five tonne jump drive for four thousand parsec tonnes performance, four hundred tonne drop tank, and thirty four hundred tonnes of external cargo.
That office on the CRB scout ship bridge looks like a stateroom sized space anyway. 6 DTon bridge, 4 Dton office, or a 10 DTon bridge.
10% of your ship taken up with bridge always seemed excessive, 46 square metres for possibly a single crewman is a lot. It would have been better if it were a percentage of some function of the ship (maybe the number of crew stations it supports).
Who is on the bridge anyway? Is the engineering officer on the bridge controlling the jump drive or in the engineering section and his station considered part of the jumpdrive/powerplant/m-drive space. Is the steward on the bridge or in the staterooms/common areas. Where is the Medic. Presumably the pilot has a seat, but since the navigator only makes one calculation on average per jump, can they dial it in from their stateroom between games of space tetris?
How many of the crew are on the bridge at any one time. All of them or only a shifts worth. Is the bridge aways manned or only when in normal space. If an in-system transit takes multiple days is the pilot and navigator seats always occupied? What about the sensor operator, just on emergence and otherwise on call.
How much less can be done in a cockpit for it to be so small by comparison. It needs all the same controls as a 300 Dton non-jump spaceship.
What does the bridge actually contain. A few workstations shouldn't take up a lot of space. How much is actually free space for people to occupy.
Without answers to these questions the DTonnage required for a bridge might as well be a random number.
10% of your ship taken up with bridge always seemed excessive, 46 square metres for possibly a single crewman is a lot. It would have been better if it were a percentage of some function of the ship (maybe the number of crew stations it supports).
Who is on the bridge anyway? Is the engineering officer on the bridge controlling the jump drive or in the engineering section and his station considered part of the jumpdrive/powerplant/m-drive space. Is the steward on the bridge or in the staterooms/common areas. Where is the Medic. Presumably the pilot has a seat, but since the navigator only makes one calculation on average per jump, can they dial it in from their stateroom between games of space tetris?
How many of the crew are on the bridge at any one time. All of them or only a shifts worth. Is the bridge aways manned or only when in normal space. If an in-system transit takes multiple days is the pilot and navigator seats always occupied? What about the sensor operator, just on emergence and otherwise on call.
How much less can be done in a cockpit for it to be so small by comparison. It needs all the same controls as a 300 Dton non-jump spaceship.
What does the bridge actually contain. A few workstations shouldn't take up a lot of space. How much is actually free space for people to occupy.
Without answers to these questions the DTonnage required for a bridge might as well be a random number.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
It is.
Used to be two percent of volume.
Now, it's possible for the computer to do practically everything else virtually.
Except astrogation.
Used to be two percent of volume.
Now, it's possible for the computer to do practically everything else virtually.
Except astrogation.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
It can even do that if you feel lucky.
Yup and a ship with jump drive has extra command and control need like jump navigation, jump dive control. Plus the bridge is where most of the control and monitoring for the ships functions are done. The larger the ship the more things to monitor and control.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
The old description of a bridge:
The Bridge: All starships must allocate 20 tons displacement for basic controls,
which include guidance radars, drive and power plant controls, communications
equipment, and other devices required for proper control of the ship.
The Bridge: All ships must allocate 2% of their tonnage (minimum 20 tons)
to basic controls, communications equipment, avionics, scanners, detectors, sensors,
and other equipment for proper operation of the ship.
The Bridge: Every ship requires a bridge for control of the drives and electronics
and for navigation. Such a bridge (designated as the main bridge or prime bridge)
requires 2% of the ship's tonnage (minimum: 20 tons) at a cost of Cr5,000 per
ton of ship. The bridge contains all necessary equipment for the control of the ship with the
exception of the computer.
So the list of components are:
basic controls
avionics
guidance radar, scanners, detectors, sensors
drive controls (for each type of drive)
comms
other equipment for proper operation of the ship.
I quite liked the MegaTraveller sequence of considering each as a separate system
The Bridge: All starships must allocate 20 tons displacement for basic controls,
which include guidance radars, drive and power plant controls, communications
equipment, and other devices required for proper control of the ship.
The Bridge: All ships must allocate 2% of their tonnage (minimum 20 tons)
to basic controls, communications equipment, avionics, scanners, detectors, sensors,
and other equipment for proper operation of the ship.
The Bridge: Every ship requires a bridge for control of the drives and electronics
and for navigation. Such a bridge (designated as the main bridge or prime bridge)
requires 2% of the ship's tonnage (minimum: 20 tons) at a cost of Cr5,000 per
ton of ship. The bridge contains all necessary equipment for the control of the ship with the
exception of the computer.
So the list of components are:
basic controls
avionics
guidance radar, scanners, detectors, sensors
drive controls (for each type of drive)
comms
other equipment for proper operation of the ship.
I quite liked the MegaTraveller sequence of considering each as a separate system
