Boresight / Initiative Fix...

[silashand]

Just because there's so much discussion on boresight and initiative lately and because I'm feeling ornery, how's this for a "fix" (assuming you think it's broken): Instead of the current system where each player nominates one of their own ships to move and then their opponent does likewise, how about each player nominates one of their opponent's ships to move and then vice versa? (I stole this idea from another game where it actually works pretty well). It would certainly fix the problem of not being able to target the ship you want anyway except for that first ship that has to move (which is always the case anyway).

Anyway, just fuel for the fire... ;-)

Cheers, Gary

 

[Delthos]

I actually liked the way Chronopia 1st Ed. handles initiative (I never read through Chronopia 2nd Ed to see if it was the same). It is an alternating activation system similar to what is currently in place in ACTA and to what you have suggested.

You roll for initiative, then the initiative winner gets to pick which model/unit is activated first (either his or his opponent's units). After that first activation, the players alternate activations, only picking from their own units to activate.

I like this method more as it gives some control to the initiative winner, but doesn't give your opponent complete control over what order you activate your fleet in. It also makes it more important to win initiative. It can help fix the boresite problem, but won't fix it completely, especially for those fleets with very low initiative.

 

[silashand]

Well, I almost suggested the method WarGods of Aegyptus uses which is to write down orders for each unit and keep them hidden. Then when it's the activation phase your opponent nominates a unit and its orders are revealed and executed immediately. Kinda like saying "My ship is going forward 6", then pull a hard turn to starboard." Only problem with this method is IMO it's a pain in the behind to use, though quite fun in practice from what I've seen.

Cheers, Gary

 

[animus]

I actually liked the way Chronopia 1st Ed. handles initiative (I never read through Chronopia 2nd Ed to see if it was the same). It is an alternating activation system similar to what is currently in place in ACTA and to what you have suggested.

You roll for initiative, then the initiative winner gets to pick which model/unit is activated first (either his or his opponent's units). After that first activation, the players alternate activations, only picking from their own units to activate.

I like this method more as it gives some control to the initiative winner, but doesn't give your opponent complete control over what order you activate your fleet in. It also makes it more important to win initiative. It can help fix the boresite problem, but won't fix it completely, especially for those fleets with very low initiative.

This one has merit.

 

[reyamc2001]

actually liked the way Chronopia 1st Ed. handles initiative (I never read through Chronopia 2nd Ed to see if it was the same). It is an alternating activation system similar to what is currently in place in ACTA and to what you have suggested.

You roll for initiative, then the initiative winner gets to pick which model/unit is activated first (either his or his opponent's units). After that first activation, the players alternate activations, only picking from their own units to activate.

I like this method more as it gives some control to the initiative winner, but doesn't give your opponent complete control over what order you activate your fleet in. It also makes it more important to win initiative. It can help fix the boresite problem, but won't fix it completely, especially for those fleets with very low initiative

The problem with this would be that if I am an Earth Alliance player playing against someone with higher initiative, I will never get to fire my omega's boresight at anything since it will almost always be forced to move first.

 

[eldiablito]

...each player nominates one of their own ships to move and then their opponent does likewise, how about each player nominates one of their opponent's ships to move and then vice versa?

This could really go far towards helping the already poor Drazi and boresight fleets. It also reduces the problem with swarms that loose the initiative roll. I like it.

 

[Poi]

...each player nominates one of their own ships to move and then their opponent does likewise, how about each player nominates one of their opponent's ships to move and then vice versa?

This could really go far towards helping the already poor Drazi and boresight fleets. It also reduces the problem with swarms that loose the initiative roll. I like it.

This destroys the assassination mission. Oh. I'll nominate my target first, and then all my ships can track it.

 

[Delthos]

I just had an idea on how to fix boresite. How about instead of boresite requiring stem to stem alignment, it had a 45 degree front/rear arc? This would give it flexibility to work with the current initiative system and not completely hinder boresite fleets, yet it would make it restrictive enough to require more maneuvering than a regular front arc weapon?

I believe this wouldn't require any changes to the current initiative system and would go a long way towards fixing the issues with boresite weapons. It also wouldn't require any new special actions. It may require some looks at boresite ships to see if they are now too powerful, but I don't believe it would require significant changes as many boresite ships are low in the maneuverability area anyway.

 

[reyamc2001]

Perhaps an idea might be to allow each player to select one of their ships to move last. Each player would move all of their other ships in as it is now, but those two ships would move last, in initiative order. This way, you would always have something to shoot at.

 

[lastbesthope]

This way, you would always have something to shoot at.

Not if one side only has one ship in their fleet, and wins initiative so moves last.

LBH

 

[Ripple]

It's the same issue I've brought up before... saving a ship doesn't fix any of the boresight problems for races that rely on boresight. It only addresses fleets that have a bore sighted 'command' ship.

You cannot fix bore sight by fixing initiative unless you abandon the alternating system. You have to fix bore sight on the individual ship level, so that whether you have one bore sight or twenty, fast or slow bore ships, high initiative or low, you have a way of bringing the weapon to bear on targets not selected for you by your opponent.

And if you make it luck based (CQ check), be ready to hear all the same complaints you hear about stealth, as the game will quickly turn un-fun when luck goes against you.

Ripple

 

[l33tpenguin]

While there is the argument that it is difficult to sight, a 20-45 degree 'bore sight' arc is probably the easiest way to fix the whole bore sight problem. It is still a very restrictive arc, but it gives you some room to breathe over the extremely punishing straight line it is currently

 

[Da Boss]

If you went down that route you could use the new Tactica Aeronautica bases with their 45 degree front arc (IIRC) already on them......

got lots now............

 

[Prophaniti]

Or just allow boresight to be lined up if it crosses the base?

 

[Delthos]

Or just allow boresight to be lined up if it crosses the base?

That would be fine if Mongoose had a standard base size. Unfortunately they've stated to use what ever you want. Even their new plastic ball and socket bases are a different size than the old style bases. Even from blister to blister they changed from small and large. They just don't have a standard.

I really think a 45 degree arc is going to be the best option to fix the boresite problem. Anything smaller than that will be too difficult to judge with any kind of accuracy and will pretty much put us back in the situation with requiring stem to stem alignment.

 

[l33tpenguin]

I really wish there was a standardization in base size and that bases were used for targetting. If any part of the base is within a firing arc, it can be shot at, but ships can still only fire from one arc

Of course, it would be nicer to see 3-4 sized bases, if that were the case

 

[Triggy]

I think if you truely want to "fix" the initiative system you'd have to have a system where individual ships move not alternately but in relation to a fixed progression. By this I mean:

Each ship rolls 2d6 and adds the fleet initiative modifier to it, and a modifier for the PL of the ship (Patrol = +2, Skirmish = +1, Raid = +0, Battle = -1, etc.).

Every ship then moves in the order of initiatives. This means a War PL ship is still not that likely to target a Patrol PL ship (similar problems are seen currently with swarms vs. big ships) but the larger ships are completely independent from how many ships are in a fleet for determining what they can target.

Of course, this takes a good deal more time than the current system but to me it seems the only sort of mechanism that would "solve" the main complaints.

 

[snubby]

"I think if you truely want to "fix" the initiative system you'd have to have a system where individual ships move not alternately but in relation to a fixed progression. By this I mean:

Each ship rolls 2d6 and adds the fleet initiative modifier to it, and a modifier for the PL of the ship (Patrol = +2, Skirmish = +1, Raid = +0, Battle = -1, etc.). "

I like this thought does sound workish.

Now instead of the base one could say if it crosses the ships hull, though this would be an issue if one is using diff scaled models. but works great for the counters.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Sounds similar to my suggestion:
Ship's initiative score = 2d6* + Ship's Init modifier** + Ship's CQ***

* For a more "realistic" game, the 2d6 should be rolled separately for each ship. For a faster resolving game, roll the 2d6 once per fleet and resolve the initiative for each ship on that one dice roll.

** This would be a new stat for each ship which would take into account both the training of the fleet it's from, and the ability of the ship to react to events on the battlefield. As a temporary measure, Init modifiers could be worked out for each ship by adding the fleet modifier to a priority level modifier, as per Triggy's proposal, but these should be replaced with more personalised stats for ships to represent that a Modified Freighter should not have better initiative that a White Star, even if crewed by the same crew.

*** Whilst at first glance adding the ship's CQ into the equation may seem like it'll slow down the system, this only needs to be done once at the beginning of the battle. Once you've worked out the ship's total for Init modifier + CQ at the beginning of the battle, you can just continue to use this figure throughout.


The main issue is that this will for the most part weaken already underpowered high priority ships, and strengthen already overpowered low priority ships, so the fleets will be in even more desperate need of a rebalance. This will pretty much mean that this idea can't happen until 3rd Ed.

 

[l33tpenguin]

roll per ship = too much rolling and book keeping. A single over all roll, then add that to the ships speed and CQ, sure. but lets not do it for each ship.

A 'redundancy' would go a long way to fixing large ships vs small ships