Bonus to skill checks

Khentar

Mongoose
Hello everyone,

I'm new to Traveller, even if I have quite a few books from Mongoose. I dabbed a bit in the corerule and found the classic creation process convoluted and giving really poor skilled people with lots of skills at 0/1/2 even for people with several terms who are supposed to be really good at what they do.

One thing who bugs me the most is that I looked at several adventures and i saw NPC with really poor stats (between 4 to 11) and poor to good skills (0 to 2, rarely a 3). So they have only 0 to 3 points of bonus to their checks - when they have something to add.

If we think as 8 to be the norm and 15 to be the peak of what is possible, we should see several people with 11-13 to one or two of their attribute. Especially EDU for people with scientific/technologic/medical background and it's possible to have 3 in their field if they are good enough. If I look to the corerule, the skills can goes to 6, the bonus attribute to 3 (even more is enhanced).

A good professional may have a +1 from attribute and +2 from skill, so +3 to its check
A true expert may have +2 from attribute and +4 from skill so +6 to its check
Chuck Norris may have +3 from attribute and +6 from skill, so +9 to its check.

So usually, the PCs should encouter people with +2 to +6 to their core skills, isn't it ? So why I have the feeling that everything is watered down, PC and NPCs ? What do I miss ?

Thanks for helping me :)

K.
 
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The stat bonus is not part of whether you are expert or not, imho. Education does tend to be inflated (if you actually go to school), but really high physical stats not so much. The vast majority of people should be between 6 and 8. 11 to 13 is like pro athlete level physicality. That said, the stats in the game are set as a general guideline since the designers have no idea what your group looks like. You can adjust them upwards if you think it's necessary.

As far as chargen goes... 0 represents someone trained in the skill, but not that experienced. A rank of 1 is good enough to get a professional qualification. A Rank of 3 is someone with a lot of training and/or experience. Above that, you are talking renowned experts. The reality is that most folks are not "really good" at their jobs. The game assumes that folks with 1 or 2 skill are doing the jobs competently but are probably using extra time to get it right for the hard stuff.
 
Skills are bigger than what you think. A DM+1 on 2D is huge.

A doctor is supposed to be Medic-2 after a couple of terms of schooling.

For example, a Traveller with Medic 1 may be a paramedic or nurse, while another Traveller with Medic 2 might be a doctor. If a Traveller had Medic 3, they would likely be a very well-regarded doctor with many years of practice under their belt. A Traveller with Medic 4 or 5 would be at least world-renowned, and may well be known across several star systems for his expertise.
 
Yeah, 2d6 is a pretty narrow curve. A character rolling +0 is going to succeed at a standard level challenge 45% of the time. Add a +1 from stat, skill, gear, etc and that's now a 55%. A +6 is "can't fail" for the vast majority of challenges.
 
Compare two marksmen trying a difficult shot (10+), one with skill-0 and the other with skill-1.

The first needs to roll 10+ which is a 16% chance.
The other needs to roll 9+ which is a 28% chance.

Almost twice the chance of succeeding from a single skill level.
 
Yeah, 2d6 is a pretty narrow curve. A character rolling +0 is going to succeed at a standard level challenge 45% of the time. Add a +1 from stat, skill, gear, etc and that's now a 55%. A +6 is "can't fail" for the vast majority of challenges.
It's even a larger difference, rolling 8+ is 15/36 = 42% and rolling 7+ is 21/36 = 58%.

If you have a total DM+3 (83% chance) or better it's barely necessary to roll, unless it's a life or death situation...
 
Heh, that's what I get for posting from work at 6;30am. Mentally rounded off instead of doing it more precisely.
 
Thanks for the answer.
Compare two marksmen trying a difficult shot (10+), one with skill-0 and the other with skill-1.

The first needs to roll 10+ which is a 16% chance.
The other needs to roll 9+ which is a 28% chance.

Almost twice the chance of succeeding from a single skill level.

I'm not talking about the 2d6 curve but about the skill / attribute levels and what they mean. And of course, the stat and the skills aren't correlated. And of course, not everyone is good as its jobs and 2 in a field is "enough".

BUT

PCs tend to be "better" than average people. Players don't play everyday plain people but rather exceptional ones. That's why they are usually more proefficient and more "willing to go into adventure" than your neighbor.

If you take the crew of the Rocinante, Nagata is a really good engineer, Amos is a freaking force of nature and Holden is very charismatic and good at everything. Of course they have some attributes which are better than average. And of course they have better skills than your average NPC people.

But yes, i agree, having a +4/+6 bonus is huge. But doesn't it logical for truly good people to success average task and to sweat only very difficult (14+ diff) ones ?

K.
 
Traveller isn't creating "exceptional" people in the sense of more skilled than everyone else. They are more willing to adventure. Its designed to create people competent at a range of things, not hyper skilled at a particular thing.
 
I'm not talking about the 2d6 curve but about the skill / attribute levels and what they mean.
They are intrinsically linked as skill-1 means exactly a DM+1 on a 2D roll.

The narrow and peaky distribution of a 2D roll means that a DM+1 means a lot more than on say a D20 roll.


PCs tend to be "better" than average people.
No, generally not in Traveller. It's just ordinary people in extraordinary situations. And they don't level up into superhumans after a few sessions...
 
If you want to make TV show specialists for Traveller, which can be useful for certain kinds of campaigns, its best to use one of the alternate generation systems in the Companion. The basic rules are trying to make characters that are useful in a broad range of situations and adventure types.
 
Oh, another thing to consider. I've always understood that the task difficulties are for dramatic situations. 8+ is the average difficulty for a situation that is worth attention in an adventure. It is not the average difficulty of a day-to-day task.
 
My guiding principle is to only roll dice as a last resort to resolve a situation, unless it is combat.
 
If I read everyone right, it's down to :

1/ Having a +1/+2/+3 bonus is already huge so we don't need more to succeed as the target number for a regular task is 8+
2/ Traveller is for regular "everyday" people in adventurous situation, not "cinematic people"

I understand those assumptions and I don't challenge them.

What I challenge is the overall table design. On a PBTA, which also use a 2d6 system vs 6+, you have bonuses from -1 until +3. Nothing more. It's set in the rules.

In Traveller - which is much much older, and much more simulation - , you have Attributes which go as far as 15 (+3) and skills which are capped at +6 for Legends. You also have the possibility to use augmentation. In the Companion, you have the cost of everything. I assume it's there for a reason.

As there is a table for success/failure margin, and even "everyday people" may have good attributes, even from time to time exceptional ones, why does players and adventures tend to ignore them ?

From what I understand, it's like playing D&D and saying "We know the game is going from 0 to 20 but we will use only the 4/5 first levels. After we find it broken. But If you play that way, you can play 9th level or higher" (Disclaimer, i don't compare Travellers with terms with D&D/levels in their game design)

(It's a genuine question, not an attack on either system or type of game)

K.
 
I'm not sure why you think the game is ignoring them? I have to admit, I don't pay a lot of attention to the specific details of NPCs since that's the sort of thing I feel should be adjusted to suit the party. PCs can certainly have a wide range of stats, especially after Chargen.

No one said that you can't or shouldn't have +6 on a roll. Maybe I misunderstood your question, but I just meant it isn't a regular thing for folks to do that, imho. Skill 4 with a stat that's 12+ to get +6 is not just "an expert". That's a world renowned expert. Most of the characters you find in the adventures are just normal blokes or folks that are 'good at their job', not like widely sought after expert. If they are a widely sought after expert in their field, then they should have a net +4 to +6. It seemed like you thought that should be a regular occurrence. I don't think it should.

The game limits characters to Rank 4 at chargen, but they can improve it (albeit quite slowly by most games' standards). Its not that easy to get skills stacked like that, but it is not super rare. Of the six PCs in my campaign, 5 of them came out of Chargen with a least a skill of 3 in something and one or more stats that are +1 or +2.
 
In Traveller - which is much much older, and much more simulation - , you have Attributes which go as far as 15 (+3) and skills which are capped at +6 for Legends. You also have the possibility to use augmentation. In the Companion, you have the cost of everything. I assume it's there for a reason.
Traveller is old... It has not been designed as much as it has grown haphazardly over the decades.

The basic character premise, which is mostly still true, you rolled your characteristics with 2D without any bonuses or rerolls. You didn't get stellar stats. Only about one character in 6 got a "12" stat, and then it got modified down by aging.

You get random skills, so you can't choose to concentrate on high levels in one or two skills. You can choose to stay in your career to get more skills (but probably not high skills), but then your characteristics go down by ageing.

The expectation of high stats just isn't there. It's not like D&D where the fighter is expected to have Str 18, so they had to introduce 18/00 to differentiate between them.


Augments are kind of new to Traveller, and some people just don't use them, some use them enthusiastically. They also tend to cost a lot of money.

Money is something like XP in D&D, and therefore a limited resource. Travellers are often motivated to adventure by money, or rather the lack of money. Generally Travellers are kept poor to keep 'em keen. So most adventurers don't have the money to spend MCrs on augments.

Already decades ago there were immensely powerful weapons (FGMP) and armour (Battledress). People learned to limit them as to not upend campaigns. Perhaps augments fall in the same category for a lot of people, so they are limited.


Traveller is an open-ended toolbox, you can play as you like. If you want to keep the characters poor, you can do that. If you want to start with a MCr of augments per character you can do that. Some play as naval officers with large warships as tools, or even ruling empires with trillions at their disposal. But I believe most play with low power levels, as char gen suggests.


As there is a table for success/failure margin, and even "everyday people" may have good attributes, even from time to time exceptional ones, why does players and adventures tend to ignore them ?
Ignore them? My experience is that when you for once get a really good characteristic or skill, you tend to play it to the hilt. Normal challenges gets trivial, so the Referee has to throw more difficult challenges in your way.

Adventures tend to be aimed at fairly standard characters, with limited skill levels, but hopefully a good spread of skill in the party. If you play with a character with a really good skill, the adventure probably has to be adjusted a bit.

Traveller tends to be "low fantasy" compared to D&Ds "high fantasy".
 
Maybe one thing to think about is that high bonuses from stats and skills are pretty much telling you to raise the difficulty level / target number.

So you have your ex-Marine with Dex 12 and Gun 3, and they’re getting a +6 to hit and doing extra damage with positive Effect. Cool. Gets pretty boring pretty quick when you’re just mowing thru mooks like a bad 80s action movie. But if that’s what you want, well there’s your cinematic Traveller right there. Nothing wrong with that.

But to keep it challenging, and I would say interesting, those mooks should use cover, movement and superior armor to reduce chances to hit and any damage suffered. Also better weapons to increase their own chances of hitting and damaging the SuperMarine. The challenge should rise to the level of capability.

In non-combat situations higher stat and skill bonuses allow you to accomplish difficult things that most people can’t - whether that’s hacking, trading or manipulation. So again, not really about doing average things really easily but rather being able to do the difficult things that a regular person would fail at.

Good stories come from conflict, if it’s too easy the stories feel weak IMO. Much of Traveller is “ordinary people in extraordinary situations” and that’s the way char-gen is designed but you can totally rock out with extraordinary Travellers. But for me it’s a lot more fun if the NPCs and beasts and problems to solve are even more extraordinary.
 
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