Betelgeuse

[steelbrok]

Does anyone know if the star Betelgeuse is in Charted Space? Its about 200 parsecs from Earth but I can't find which direction would be appropriate.
I ask because I was just reading that it is likely to go supernova within the next few decades which means there could well be a supernova wavefront passing through Charted Space. Just seemed like a cool bit of chrome to add to an adventure.

 

[Geir]

I thought there was a thread about it here, but can't find it now.

Betelgeuse would likely be a sector or two rimward of Rimreach sector. As for it going supernova, between 500 years ago (light takes time) and 100,000 years from now. Probably not imminent, but we don't know enough to make a better guess. Major damage would be limited to the sector in which it happened (maybe 10 parsecs for really bad environmental effects) - for everyone else, a light show - unless you happened to be lined up with the poles (rotational? magnetic? I don't know) when it explodes - then you could it some bad gamma for quite a large distance.

 

[GypsyComet]

The Traveller wiki page for the star had it in the wrong place until a few months ago. It has been moved to what is currently called Uroac Sector. Whether that's "Charted Space" or not depends on your definition of that term.

 

[alex_greene]

I've a feeling that the OTU is set in a timeline where Betelgeuse takes its own sweet time exploding, maybe holding forth on the boom for another 100,000 years or so.
In our timeline, for all we know the damn thing could go boom tomorrow.

 

[CordwainerFish]

There's always a boom tomorrow.

 

[steelbrok]

The Traveller wiki page for the star had it in the wrong place until a few months ago. It has been moved to what is currently called Uroac Sector. Whether that's "Charted Space" or not depends on your definition of that term.

I was using Charted Space in the sense of "in the Official Traveller Universe", but having seen the detail of Uroac sector on Travellermap.com, it does seem to be in somewhat un-Charted territory

 

[GypsyComet]

Yep. While the term can be a bit fluid, "Charted Space" seems to apply most often to the reach of the old red line map from GDW. If you back out a bit, it was digitized into Traveller Map. The corners are Sidiadl, Kring Noor, Treece, and Yahehwe. But. The Alien Books from later in CT pushed the named sectors out by a row all around, so maybe the edge of Charted Space is Viajlefliez, Xeeleer, Sporelex, and Aftailr. Later books pushed that out even farther in a few spots, so...

Named sectors beyond that are the result of various parties, whether Marc, Mongoose, or ardent fans, wanting to head into the unknown. When the sectors in Mongoose's Rimward book were transcribed for inclusion in Traveller Map, we noticed that the wiki put Betelgeuse in one of those sectors and decided to confirm that. The result was that Betelgeuse was moved to *about* where it should be.

On the other hand, the Pleiades are right in the way on the edge of Lubbock and Holowon, and accidentally make the approach into Lubbock mentioned in the Mongoose book the logical one. The Solomani route is implied to swing to spinward and approach Horden (Lubbock H) from spin-coreward. The Pleiades roughly occupy Lubbock C and D and likely parts of Holowon O and P. The cluster includes a LOT of stars, so jump travel through the Pleiades is likely very difficult, and the trailing side of the cluster has a polity that may not appreciate Solomani traffic. So the Solomani go around the other way.

 

[WHULorigan]

The correct location is noted at the end of the "Description (Specifications)" section of the TravellerWiki article, per SIMBAD:

• The Betelgeuse star system lies approximately 152.7pc from Terra, and is located . . . from Terra at bearing 199.8 degrees Galactic Longitude* and -09.0 degrees South Galactic Latitude**.

NOTE: All of the "Star" pages have an associated boilerplate text about placement that should be read on their linked metadata page, as placement of non-canonically located stars is a matter for GM's discretion:

• Betelgeuse (star) /metadata

Since Betelgeuse (to my knowledge) has never been canonically located in Traveller, based on the boilerplate text: with a bearing of 199.8 degrees, anywhere between 155 degrees to 200 degrees longitude should be reasonable for a bearing, depending upon your philosophy of how you want to treat any discrepancy (if any) between the Charted Space Map axes versus Real Space Galactic Coordinate axes. Splitting the difference, the "average" between these two extremes is about 175-180 degrees longitude, or roughly due-rimward.

As to whether there is a source (current or upcoming) placing it in Uroac Sector other than a simple wiki-editor's choice, I do not know. I originally left the articles on stars with otherwise non-specified locations specifically undefined as regards Charted Space location so that GMs could make their own choices regarding the issue for their own campaigns.

* Measuring counterclockwise from coreward bearing​

** Slight down-angle into the plane of the page (note that Sol is about ~6.0 pc north of the mean galactic plane)​

 

[Arkathan]

Elite Dangerous used the most recent star maps to position the stars in our galaxy. When you zoom out on the map, it is at roughly the 5:00 direction from Sol. This puts it very close to where Geir said it should be.

 

[WHULorigan]

Elite Dangerous used the most recent star maps to position the stars in our galaxy. When you zoom out on the map, it is at roughly the 5:00 direction from Sol. This puts it very close to where Geir said it should be.

Yes, but the issue I am raising is one of a discrepancy of the Charted Space coordinate axes being misaligned as compared to the true Galactic coordinate axes. The coordinate axes on the Charted Space Map themselves may be skewed up to 45 degrees counterclockwise from the true Galactic coordinate axis positions.

Just as an example, Alpha Centauri (i.e. "Prometheus") lies at longitude bearing 315 degrees. That should be due coretrailing. Look where it is located relative to Sol (Terra) on the Charted Space map. Likewise, Barnard's Star's true position is at bearing 31.0 degrees longitude (somewhat spinward of coreward). Where is it located on the Charted Space map? Deneb (despite being at half the range-distance it should be) is in reality almost due spinward of Sol at bearing 84.3 degrees longitude. What is its bearing from Sol on the Charted Space map? This holds true for several other canonically specified near-Sol stars as well. Some are not quite as skewed, and one or two are in really bizarre positions. Antares is roughly accurate.

So the basis of my comment (and the intent of the boilerplate text on the star articles) is that if you want to maintain consistency with the apparent axis rotation, then figure out where the star correctly should be and then rotate the axes clockwise by 45 degrees before placing it on Charted Space. If this does not matter to you, then just ignore the rotational transformation. Or split the difference and rotate by 22.5 degrees, or anything else in between. It's up to the GM - I am merely providing an observation and some guidelines.

 

[Arkathan]

I can understand nearby systems being off. On a 2d grid, you have to play fast and loose to get all of the nearby locations that people would expect to see. Look at the differences near Earth between the Hostile setting map and the Solomani map.
We should be able to expect distant popular objects to be more accurately placed.

 

[Midnightplat]

Betelgeuse can only be reached if the Astrogator chants the name of the system three times in a mirror before they plot the course. This knowledge is not taught in astrogation school and is largely forbidden in 3I and suppressed by an Inquisition created after the Nth Showtime Skirmishes.

 

[WHULorigan]

I can understand nearby systems being off. On a 2d grid, you have to play fast and loose to get all of the nearby locations that people would expect to see. Look at the differences near Earth between the Hostile setting map and the Solomani map.
We should be able to expect distant popular objects to be more accurately placed.

Understood for the near stars. But it still does not explain some of the far stars like Deneb or Delta Cephei.

 

[WHULorigan]

I can understand nearby systems being off. On a 2d grid, you have to play fast and loose to get all of the nearby locations that people would expect to see. Look at the differences near Earth between the Hostile setting map and the Solomani map.
We should be able to expect distant popular objects to be more accurately placed.

I suppose if we want to handwave one could always invoke the idea that it is a "Jump-plot" map and that J-Space is not necessarily a 1-to-1 linear correspondence with normal space, and that there is a "curl" factor involved in the vector calculus transformation from N-Space to J-Space due to masses and gravity gradients . . .

But now I am straying off topic.

 

[Geir]

Understood for the near stars. But it still does not explain some of the far stars like Deneb or Delta Cephei.

Deneb's location is clearly broken, but Delta Cephei isn't that bad: the jump-6 route is 201 parsecs, but the real distance is something like 250ish (I don't know if GAIA has a better value). When I redid The Beyond, I figured it could stay where Paranoid Press put it. In any case, the whole map squeezes the entire galaxy into a one-parsec pancake, so we lose the third dimensional distance, which would tend to shrink distances a bit.

 

[Geir]

Deneb's location is clearly broken, but Delta Cephei isn't that bad: the jump-6 route is 201 parsecs, but the real distance is something like 250ish (I don't know if GAIA has a better value). When I redid The Beyond, I figured it could stay where Paranoid Press put it. In any case, the whole map squeezes the entire galaxy into a one-parsec pancake, so we lose the third dimensional distance, which would tend to shrink distances a bit.

So I'll quote myself after checking with SIMBAD, there is a Gaia value for it, which comes to 282 parsecs... so I'll stick with the "squishy galaxy" cop-out.

 

[WHULorigan]

So I'll quote myself after checking with SIMBAD, there is a Gaia value for it, which comes to 282 parsecs... so I'll stick with the "squishy galaxy" cop-out.

I am not arguing the distance in the case of Delta Cephei like I mentioned for Deneb (and I am glad you kept it in The Beyond, as I loved those two Paranoia Press sectors back in the day ). But Like Deneb, it has a rotated longitudinal angle used by the original Paranoia Press authors (or GDW if they are the ones who placed the sector) in locating it in Beyond. Delta Cephei is at 105.2 degrees longitude, which in the real universe should make it slightly rimward of due spinward. But if you apply an approximate 45 degree rotation (give or take) of the axes as I mentioned, it brings it roughly into The Beyond.

 

[WHULorigan]

Deneb's location is clearly broken, . . .

It is notable that on GDWs original hand-drawn map of Charted Space in the files section of the MegaTraveller CD which has numerous real-world stars placed on it, Deneb was originally placed at a then conservative estimate of the CORRECT distance and is located on the far side of the Zhodani Consulate (Bliardlie Sector) - but note that it is still along the rotated longitudinal axis bearing, and not due spinward.

 

[Ol'Weedy]

It's details like this, that will give my next campaign a cliche catchphrase\cop-out...
"....in a galaxy far, far away...."

 

[G'Naakbusters]

Clearly one day Grandfather idly sat down on a console and accidentally pressed a button; Deneb jumped a few sectors. He couldn't be bothered to put it back.