Beam-Burger Compromise?

[Da Boss]

problem with optional rules is they get lost in the general clutter of threads.

what we need is a stickied post where you can only post house rules with no extra clutter. so all the beam rules could be one post. or all a certain clubs house rules could be another.
this way at least they stay together a bit as it seems we cant get them into S&P

Anorther alternative is to compile good ones and put them as a pdf in the resources thread with a suitable title?

Of course agreeing them will be the hard part :wink: But giving people a good selection with perhaps the reasoniing behind them seems useful? As stated it woudl have made a good S+P article - ah well....

but I can try and compile a first draft of House / Optional rules over the weekend if people think it s a good idea?

there are quite a number of good and well recieved ones floating about on the forum such as the % related move crits?

 

[Locutus9956]

Not been around the boards much lately and theres alot of posts to backtrack through so could someone outline for me what exactly HBS and TBS actually are?

 

[Da Boss]

HBS System:

In order to preserve some of the “beamy” feel of re-rolls that some players like how about

1,2 = 0
3,4,5 = 1
6 = 2 with progressive re-rolls

On re-rolls you need to keep rolling 6’s, but each adds 2 more damage then the previous one (the first successful re-roll adds 4 damage, a second would add another 6 damage, etc.)

It works out to beams that average about 0.98 damage per die with rare big damage potential.

TBS
How about another alternative (just to throw it into the mix):

1-2 = 0 hits
3-4 = 1 hit
5-6 = 1 hit and a reroll (keep rerolling if necessary)

not tried either as yet - but a little leery of re-rolls

Burgers Beam System was

1-2 = Miss
3-5 = 1 hit
6 = 3 hits

no re-rolls - I liked, lots don't and Burger prefers TBS !

 

[Lord David the Denied]

That HBS looks over complicated. TBS worked fine when Trig and I tried it the other day.

 

[McKickaha]

Da-Boss -

I am not a great fan of house rules for the main core game, (though I am a firm supporter of alternative universes & additional ships/fleets), however having all the "good" house rules as a community resource in 1 place sounds like the right idea. A document approach is a nice content control method.

"Good" of course requires a selection process which in turn means reaching a consensus which as you say will be the difficult part.

If you are willing to put in the effort to kick this off then I certainly support the idea.

 

[Burger]

Yeah the re-rolls you get in TBS are exponentially less likely than the current beam system.
Currently the odds of getting 6 or more hits are 1 in 64. With TBS they are 1 in 364. So while it seems like a small difference (rerolls on 5+ instead of 4+) it has a huge effect!

 

[Da Boss]

Indeed :lol: conseunsus is a rare gem

I will have a wonder through the forums - try and select the "good ones" -with if, possible reasons behind them and then we can discuss!

feel free to PM with you pet rules that you feel should be included....hmm did I really say that :lol:

If it works well may consider a seperate document with suggested / agreed revised ship designs for "problem" ships (G'Quon, Fireraptor, Shadow Omega, White Star) 8)

 

[mollari_uk]

Matt's given a direct statement saying optional rules won't be included in P&P (this was when asked by email about including an alternative beam system). He said that anyone with access to the forum can already use it as an option for their games.

Of course the rule could become the "actual" rule and not optional. Then it could appear in P+P.

 

[katadder]

whats complicated about HBS? 1-2= 0 hits, 3-5=1 hit, 6= 2 hits and roll again.
looks pretty simple to me. harder than triggys to get the reroll but you get 2 hits when you do.

 

[Burger]

IMO the HBS is more complicated because counting the hits is a bit more complicated. When you add up the hits, you have to remember to add 2 for any 6's. Whereas with TBS you just add up the hits, same as current beam system except on a 3+ instead of 4+. Also the people who felt that BBS didn't feel "beamy" enough, likely will feel the same about HBS, because the rerolls will be very quite rare (how many rerolls will you get on a White Star's 2AD? Not more than 1 very often). Just as TBS has exponentially less rerolls than current beam, HBS has exponentially less than TBS.

Current beam has a 1 in 32 chance of getting 5 rerolls. TBS has 1 in 243 chance. HBS has 1 in 7776.

 

[Foxmeister]

IMO the HBS is more complicated because counting the hits is a bit more complicated.

When my gaming group plays ACTA, we've usually got enough dice for some quite extreme roll ups (e.g. 20+). So, we roll to hit, remove the misses, and then pick up enough dice to roll up the hits again (and so). Ultimately, when we've finished the roll ups, the dice left on the table represent all the hits and those are then picked up and rolled as damage dice.

Using HBS, that wouldn't work since we'd have to add in extra dice for all the 6s on the table, so from my persective it's less desirable and less transparent.

Regards,

Dave

 

[mollari_uk]

When my gaming group plays ACTA, we've usually got enough dice for some quite extreme roll ups (e.g. 20+). So, we roll to hit, remove the misses, and then pick up enough dice to roll up the hits again (and so). Ultimately, when we've finished the roll ups, the dice left on the table represent all the hits and those are then picked up and rolled as damage dice.

Using HBS, that wouldn't work since we'd have to add in extra dice for all the 6s on the table, so from my persective it's less desirable and less transparent.

Regards,

Dave

We do this too. Makes rolling for damage/dodges much quicker. Hence I like TBS best too.

 

[Burger]

Yeah good point, I do that too

 

[Humbaba]

For the record, I am also pro TBS for simplicity's sake. Ironic that Burger and I are both on the TBS bandwagon over our namesake systems. I think that means that Triggy has hit the sweet spot.

 

[Ripple]

I like TBS too, simple and quick, but I would want to see some tests just to get a feel for how often I would see the over the top roll.

I actually liked the burger system because it put a definate limit on the other the top roll. TBS only decreases it a bit... so still nervous we'll make a change and not get much benefit in the long run.

Ripple

 

[Triggy]

Good to see people are all for testing variants on the beam mechanics. I've only tried TBS in anger in one battle and with a 6AD beam, it gave 6 and 4 hits in its two shots. More importantly, as the opponent facing it, I felt as if I could rely on it not doing a stupid number of hits, at least it was no more likely than the ion cannon shots... (9 out of 12 on rerolled 6s!)

It's this reliability aspect that I think is most enticing, with just a hint of unpredictability to ensure players don't have guaranteed shots.

 

[Da Boss]

I have used and am happy with BBS in a goodly number of games - but as the concesus of the half dozen people interested seems to be TBS I'll put both in the "House Rules" compliation i am generating.

As I said before - I think people will be dispaointed with the results on low AD beam systems as they are now used to massive roll ups from these weapons..........

 

[Foxmeister]

As I said before - I think people will be dispaointed with the results on low AD beam systems as they are now used to massive roll ups from these weapons..........

Personally, on average, I think most players with low AD beams (1/2 AD) will see an overall improvement, since they are less likely to get no hits at all which I see far more frequently than obscene roll-ups from low AD beams.

It's also a matter of persective too. Case to point, I can remember getting 14 hits from the 2 AD Mag Gun on a G'Lan, and that's the only time I can remember when it has rolled obscenely, however I can remember far, far, more occasions when it has missed completely. However, if you are on the other end, you'll always remember the big roll ups but seldom remember the misses unless it is a big beam that misses you.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Ripple]

We tracked die rolls for a long time when the current beam system came out, just to avoid perception issues. What we found was that while over all the beams were close to average, the trend was that they were always at least slightly above over all, and complete misses were rare with anything larger than 2 AD.

Roll ups of twice to four times the AD were a given in every fight, and one of more than that was expected every few games on the smaller beams. One thing I remember was that we rarely actually rolled out the huge hits... so that changed how I remembered them at times.

Anyway, we played with the TBS last night. We weren't able to finish the game due to time, but while it did level the beams to a degree we did see a beam roll up in final turn (3 total). So too little to know, but out of 14 beam shots we had a complete miss (2 AD beam), 12 mixed bags of slightly under to slightly over (within 2 hits of expected), one over the top hit of 3x+ hits (7 hits out of a 2 AD beam).

Clarification on the beam....
Initial roll 1-2 miss, 3-4 hit, 5-6 hit and additional die
Additional rolls 5-6 hit and reroll or 3-4 hit, 5-6 hit and additional die

We played with the first option, which I'm told is slight decrease in overall beam power, but thought I get a clarification.

Ripple

 

[Triggy]

Ripple those results are pretty much what I'd be expecting from TBS - although as you point out, it's hard to tell from one game whether roll ups are likely to be a frequent occurrence.

As for how to play it, option 2 is correct - it gives the same odds of roll ups and also keeps the average number of hits exactly the same as the current system.