Battledress & vacc Suit

[badpixie]

If a character has Battledress skill do you generally also count it as the equivalent Vacc Suit skill? It becomes relevent if your battlesuit character wants to wear an advanced vacc suit or combat armour.

CT explicitly allowed the crossover I think, but its not really stated in MT.

 

[barnest2]

I think so. Seeing as in CSC, the battle-suits have the vacc-suit skill as required, then Battle-suit is just the next up version, and probably also includes skills such as maintaining pseudo-musculature. So yes, a battle-suit user could use vacc-suits without much problem.

 

[Treebore]

I don't have my book, but I believe it does say in the skill write ups that there is a cross over between battle suits and Vacc suit.

 

[DFW]

I would think so as it is a form of an armoured vacc suit.

 

[Treebore]

I have to admit the skills certainly read like there is no cross over any longer. So if there is cross over between the two skills it is stated in a more obscure location.

 

[rinku]

As written, no crossover. I can sort of see why - vacc suits aren't powered suits, even if they have armour (i.e. Combat Armour, CEV). In vehicle terms it's the difference between a bicycle and a motorbike. Both are two wheeled means of transport steered by handlebars, but I don't think you'd say that they have much overlap otherwise.

Having said that, many tasks would allow either skill to be used as a modifier. i.e. putting on a seal patch, checking oxygen levels, recharging power packs.

 

[BP]

From the book - combat armour is treated as a form of vacc suit. This implies Vacc Suit skill for such... though I don't recall that being explicitly mentioned either.

Battle Dress is defined as a step up from that.

So in answer to the OP's explicit question - 'do you generally also count it as the equivalent Vacc Suit skill?' - yes I do.

See it more as a Moped vs Motorcycle analogy - so operating the former should be well within the capability of the latter, but not, so much, vice-versa. YMMV.

IMTU, applying a Seal Patch with Vacc Suit 5 isn't gonna get any <i>extra</i> DM for the skill level - repairing or jury rigging the suit will. Zero-G skill will apply if applicable - but against a difficulty level.

 

[rinku]

Problem is, BP, that the rules as written do make the distinction between vacc suit and battledress operation as being more than moped/motorbike (which in Traveller terms are one skill anyway )

However, I've not got any problem with saying that in anyone's TU all people trained in Battledress normally get trained in Vacc Suit-0.

 

[Treebore]

The thing is the book indicates a relationship between combat armor and battle suits, but no longer, in the skill sections, mention a link between Vacc suit and Battle Suit. Other than mentioning it gives environmental protection similar to HEV's.

Strangely, it says the only use of each skill is that you have to have the required skill rank to wear the respective suits without penalty, but other than that skill checks are typically only required for repair and maintenance checks. and so on. Not for using them.

I agree that the skills should overlap enough to allow the other type of suit to be used at a -2 penalty. I just am not finding anything in the book to support it.

 

[nats]

I see Vacc Suit skill would only cover the use of several differnet types of vacuum suits including combat armour and battle dress, but only in general enough terms to stop you dying by incorrect operation in a vacuum.

With Battle Dress the training would be far more extensively orientated to only the operation of the more complex parts of the suit itself. It wouldnt cover vacuum training nor would it cover Zero G operation. You would be able to use the armour proficiently in a gravity non-vacuum situation ie on planets or in spaceships with gravity.

Zero G skill covers in space non gravity training whatever you are dressed in.

So I would say Battle Dress would not cover vacc suit use or any vacuum training at all. Vacc suit training would not cover Zero G only use in ships/on planets with a gravity. And Vacc Suit skill would only cover use of Battle Dress or other suits in gravity in a basic manner.

To work in space you would require Vacc Suit and Zero G skills.

To use Battle Dress in space without penalty you would require Battle Dress, Vacc Suit and Zero G skills.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I would give anyone with Battle Dress skill, an equivalent Vacc Suit 0 skill, but not the reverse.

If someone with a Vacc Suit skill tried to use a suit of Battle Dress, I would make them roll with the Skill-less penalty most of the time.

They could probably put the suit on and seal it, but they wouldn't really be able to use the features of Battle Dress any better than you or I could today. Walk around in it? Sure... Fight in it? no way.

ALTERNATELY

Treat Battle Dress as a specialty of Vacc Suit, give them Level 0 skill and assume that the heavier vacc suits have some of the same features as BD and that BD has simple to use HUD displays and intuitive operations making it not that different than a Vacc Suit. In the same kind of way you could argue that any laser pistol we would develop today would operate very much like a autopistol, because the designers would be using that as their template for operation...

Your choice...

 

[BP]

Problem is, BP, that the rules as written do make the distinction between vacc suit and battledress operation as being more than moped/motorbike (which in Traveller terms are one skill anyway )

No, not a problem as I was explicitly responding to the relevant question from the original poster were he specifically was not asking about rules as written but rather how 'you' did things...

So what page and text does the book 'make the distinction between vacc suit and battledress operation as being more than moped/motorbike' - don't recall any mopeds mentioned... :lol:

Basically you stated your personal interpretation, which is fine, but the book just provides two separate skills and the equipment section which provides the definitions of combat armour and battledress progressively from vacc suit. Hence, the OP's quite valid question about something that isn't explicitly addressed.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

It's quite clear that battledress also functions as a vacc suit, so, like most of the posters, I go along with the idea tha if you have Battledress you also have vacc suit 0 by default.

However, the reverse is not true. Battle dress has lots of extra bits which will not be usable by someone with just a vacc suit skill.

The intereresting one is combat armour, also functions as a vacc suit, but no skill required.... If used in a vacuum should the wearer also have vacc suit skill, or is part of the enormous cost a function of creating a vacc suit that even those without vacc suit skill can use without difficulty. (for what it's worth, I go with the first suggestion)

Egil

 

[DFW]

With Battle Dress the training would be far more extensively orientated to only the operation of the more complex parts of the suit itself. It wouldnt cover vacuum training

The item description is at odds with your assessment.

"The suit is fully enclosed, with a six-hour air supply and gives full protection against environmental hazards"

 

[Treebore]

Actually, Combat Armor does require the Vacc Suit skill, look on the armor table in the equipment section, where it lists the skills required, and the rank needed, to use the Vacc Suits, Combat Armor, and Battle Dress without penalty.

Plus the rules do pretty clearly state that you must have the skill rank required to use the suit (at that TL) without penalty. After that, the skill only applies to maintenance and repair checks.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Actually, Combat Armor does require the Vacc Suit skill, look on the armor table in the equipment section, where it lists the skills required, and the rank needed, to use the Vacc Suits, Combat Armor, and Battle Dress without penalty.

Plus the rules do pretty clearly state that you must have the skill rank required to use the suit (at that TL) without penalty. After that, the skill only applies to maintenance and repair checks.

We may be looking at different editions. In the MgT equipment table, p 87 of Core Book, the required skill for combat armour is "none". The more detailed expansion doesn't mention a need for vacc suit skill either. CSC p142 repeats the "none" skill.

Egil

 

[Treebore]

Page 87, Vacc Suit of 0 is needed for all versions of Combat Armor.

 

[nats]

With Battle Dress the training would be far more extensively orientated to only the operation of the more complex parts of the suit itself. It wouldnt cover vacuum training

The item description is at odds with your assessment.

"The suit is fully enclosed, with a six-hour air supply and gives full protection against environmental hazards"

You could be right. Certainly I would expect Battle Dress expert to be able to function in space without a specific Vacc Suit skill as well. That would seem to make sense. But then the question would be does Battle Dress enable the use of Combat Armour and Vacc Suits in space as well I would guess yes. In which case Vacc Suit becomes the poor brother of Battle Dress skill. Nothing wrong with that I suppose as Battle Dress skill is tricky to obtain as it should be.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Sorry, my copy just doesn't say that anywhere on page 87, or anywhere else that I can see. There are no obvious printing error on it, and I have just gone through it line by line, the only ref to Combat Armour required skill is "none".

Are there first and second editions of the MgT Core rulebook in circulation?

Egil

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Treebore, ah, this is embarressing.

Have just checked the Core book errata, yes, you are right, vacc suit 0 required for Combat Armour. I have an early copy of the core book, thought I had added all the errata and amendments but clearly missed that one.

Ignore everything I have said about Combat armour today (in fact, please forget about it)

Egil

Edit: Looks like that's another CSC mistake, then!