Battle Dress

[GypsyComet]

Armor materials affect mass more than volume ( bulk?).

Depends on the material. Armor on AFVs tends to waffle back and forth between volume and weight. If some of your armor value is dependent on spacing, then bulk becomes an issue.

besides, I just think maschienen krieger stuff is cool looking. In a game, thats the best reason, isn't it?

Indeed. Just don't forget to carry that decision into the rest of the game. If BD is huge and bulky, is it going to be the armor of choice for boarding actions where the corridors aren't that large? Or maybe starship corridors are all that big, at least in certain parts of a ship. Implications to think about...

 

[Ishmael]

Depends on the material. Armor on AFVs tends to waffle back and forth between volume and weight. If some of your armor value is dependent on spacing, then bulk becomes an issue.

I went by using the best protection per volume for tech 14...BSD. There are materials with better protection per mass, but they'd be much bulkier. Assuming a human has a surface area of about 2.5 m^2, to get the AV values I know about ( 18 for tech 14 BD ) would take about 5mm of BSD and the armor alone would mass about a quarter tonne. I figure most of the 'bulk' would be form fitting padding so the pilot isn't shook around like a worm in a tin can when he's hit by something big that doesn't penetrate. Thats using R. O'Connor's material list, btw.

Something else to consider; given how massive BD can be ( IMTU at least ), in order to move halfway decently without plodding about too much, they'll have to have a very high ST...getting punched by BD might hurt a heck of a lot more than being boinked with a lead pipe swung by Babe Ruth...it's certainly would be able to rip doors open and tear down partition walls easier than a normal Joe.

Indeed. Just don't forget to carry that decision into the rest of the game. If BD is huge and bulky, is it going to be the armor of choice for boarding actions where the corridors aren't that large? Or maybe starship corridors are all that big, at least in certain parts of a ship. Implications to think about...

not a problem
There is more than one kind ranging from super heavy Shock Troops for orbital assaults ( drop troops or assaults against space stations/moonbases/ outposts on less-than-nice worlds ) to very light nearly-combat-armor for shipboard fighting. Some built for mobility, some built for firepower, some built for defense.
Whether one goes for an 11,000 world Imperium or a small 2 subsector "sandbox" like the Islands campaign, there's dozens if not hundreds of different designs of BD ( and AFV's and ships...) and not the single example given in the book
Besides, most ship plans show corridors about 5 ft wide ( 1.5m ) or wider

 

[AKAramis]

It's not "just materials"... most of the "mech-like" battledress pictured includes broken upper arms for the wearer... anything that DOESN'T look "superdeformed" (Short-armed and short-legged) is probably going to be impossible to have the wearer's arms in the arms and legs in the legs.

Conversely, the minimum size for "pilot tucked into the body" requires the body be a minimum of about 3 cubic meters for said body, while the maximum for a "arms-in-arms" mode is about 5cm thicker than the wearer, and thinner as the armpit is approached.... there is a practical gap.

Most of the illos so far (aside from MT covers) feels like it falls into that gap.

 

[Ishmael]

Modelling BD in blender around a human form takes care of that.
A 100Kg man would take up the same volume as 100Kg of water if the compartment is form-fitting ( exact) and a fraction more if there is extra spaces for interior head movement.

http://moukotiger.googlepages.com/battlesuit_male_closed.jpg/battlesuit_male_closed-full;init:.jpg

Larger armor that this might have to be like Landmates from "Appleseed"

I'm still of the opinion that most of MT's illos are of combat armor or based off StarWars but that "BattleDress" and " Powered Armor" sounds sexier.

 

[GypsyComet]

Modelling BD in blender around a human form takes care of that.
A 100Kg man would take up the same volume as 100Kg of water if the compartment is form-fitting ( exact) and a fraction more if there is extra spaces for interior head movement.

http://moukotiger.googlepages.com/battlesuit_male_closed.jpg/battlesuit_male_closed-full;init:.jpg

Larger armor that this might have to be like Landmates from "Appleseed"

I'm still of the opinion that most of MT's illos are of combat armor or based off StarWars but that "BattleDress" and " Powered Armor" sounds sexier.

Boba Fett's armor is in the gap between Traveller's Combat Armor and Battle Dress. Obviously good armor, and providing a number of powered functions including life support, but not obviously increasing his strength. Just a little added bulk to allow for the exo frame needed for lift strength enhancement and he's at Battle Dress pretty easily.

Stormtroopers and the clone troopers before them are in low end Combat Armor.

 

[Ishmael]

walker suspensions are listed in previous versions as having 20% of the mass of the vehicle it supports. This matches fairly well with FFS's BD design stuff too. That'd bring BD up to about 300 Kgs to carry the armor required for an AV=18. Add the power and fuel and electronics and weapons and life support and human, I'm betting tech 14 AV18 BD will come in at over half a tonne.

I think it also lends to play-balance when something that has huge advantages in some areas have equally huge disadvantages in others.

I just want them to be consistent with other hardware made using similar technologies. ( for the rules I am using, at least).

on a side tangent, combat armor AV is rated way too high, imo. Given the mass of armor materials, a full coverage body armor AV couldn't be more than 4 or 5 (MT/striker/AHL/etc) before it became too heavy for an un-augmented human to move around in.

but, as always...this is MTU I am discussing; my opinions/ways of handling BD
( I guess I should drop this now because I don't use MGT, huh )

 

[AKAramis]

I'm still of the opinion that most of MT's illos are of combat armor or based off StarWars but that "BattleDress" and " Powered Armor" sounds sexier.

Boba Fett's armor is in the gap between Traveller's Combat Armor and Battle Dress. Obviously good armor, and providing a number of powered functions including life support, but not obviously increasing his strength. Just a little added bulk to allow for the exo frame needed for lift strength enhancement and he's at Battle Dress pretty easily.

Stormtroopers and the clone troopers before them are in low end Combat Armor.

I've felt, since CT, that Combat Armor and Stormtrooper Armor differed only in the lack of vacuum protection in the later.

Battledress adds myo-elastic bundles, making it look bulkier, but also aiding the wielder. But it still is not that "heavy"... especially given canonical materials for the TL.

 

[vargr1]

I've felt, since CT, that Combat Armor and Stormtrooper Armor differed only in the lack of vacuum protection in the later.

I always thought Stormtrooper armour was Traveller Combat Armour. As for vacuum protection:, these guys seem to be doing well.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/given/rb/ds-mf-2.jpg

 

[GypsyComet]

I've felt, since CT, that Combat Armor and Stormtrooper Armor differed only in the lack of vacuum protection in the later.

I always thought Stormtrooper armour was Traveller Combat Armour. As for vacuum protection:, these guys seem to be doing well.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/given/rb/ds-mf-2.jpg

Given the ubiquitous nature of atmosphere-retaining force-field technology in SW, those two could be in atmosphere.

 

[Cleon the Mad]

Well in MegaTraveller The guy on the right uses a Battledress. Late (TL14+)....(snip)

Not to derail this, but I always assumed the guy on the right was in combat armor, not battle dress. Maybe not a big difference in bulk, though.

 

[Jame Rowe]

Well in MegaTraveller The guy on the right uses a Battledress. Late (TL14+)....(snip)

Not to derail this, but I always assumed the guy on the right was in combat armor, not battle dress. Maybe not a big difference in bulk, though.

I think I agree.

 

[Patron Zero]

Not to admit an anime influence directly but I've always seen battledress as the Cyclone riding armor from Robotech-Genesis Climber Mospedia fame. Essentially a wearable suit that allows for different modules or weapon systems to be incorporated as needed.

The other school of thought might be the dedicated battlesuits described in Heinlein's novel. Starship Troopers or Joe Haldeman's The Forever War.

For a more exotic flavor, the power suits of the Dorvack armor series.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/8084/dorvack01hi9.jpg

 

[Supergamera]

If Battle Dress is indeed bulky, will Marines trained for ship boarding tend to resemble Vietnam-era "Tunnel Rats"?

 

[Maedhros]

One of the coolest Traveller images in my head is the zero-G boarding action fought with cutlasses, which seems to be the standard action: limit gunfire on board to prevent damage to sensitive systems or (heaven forbid!) breach a bulkhead into liquid hydrogen fuel storage. It's why the Navy Crewman table has Melee (Blade). Cutlasses v. Battle Dress doesn't generate the same awesomeness.

Also, if boarders were wearing Battle Dress they would be doing so primarily to use PGMP or FGMP - otherwise, simple Combat Armour would work just as well. Anyone firing a PGMP or FGMP on board a space ship is inviting disaster; those heavy weapons are clearly for planetary assault. So there really is no impetus for using Battle Dress during boarding actions.

 

[hhawk]

So there really is no impetus for using Battle Dress during boarding actions.

Unless you are trying to destroy the ship ;-p A fast shuttle filled with battle dress wearing Marines to burn holes through the ship's hull seems like an appropriate time to encounter battle dress armor in space combat.

I seem to remember a Challenge article about how rare capital ship capture was the captains would set them to self destruct before let them get captured. Maybe landing a squad of marines on the bridge and burning through to kill the command staff is an effective way to actually capture a capital ship.

 

[Infojunky]

One of the funny things I have found is that there is a relative lack of sidearms rated for and against Battledress.

 

[Maedhros]

Actually the strength-boost of a BD has it's benefits in boarding actions. Any craft that CAN be boarded is likely a bit dented and the extra strength comes in nicely. And firing P/FGMP weapons inside a boarded warship will cause quite heavy but localised damage (compared to grenades) but that can be just the "right stuff" in such an action, similar to starting a MOUT with a nice 105mm HESH to the front wall. I always assumed that it is one GMP per squad with the rest carrying other weapons. The enhanced strength could i.e be used to lug a VRF gaus "maschine gun" or a heavy assault laser. Just take care not to pierce the LH2 tanks.

Nah, I like sword fights in space

 

[GypsyComet]

Come on, an PGMP in boarding is like an MG42/59 in House2House. Heavy, cumbersome, loud and VERY EFFECTIVE.

Depends on whether you want the ship intact. Spalling bulkheads and incinerating other internal components is vast overkill in many cases. Glueguns, needle swarms, and hybrid shot for shotguns will be more appropriate for civilian targets.

 

[hhawk]

Come on, an PGMP in boarding is like an MG42/59 in House2House. Heavy, cumbersome, loud and VERY EFFECTIVE.

Depends on whether you want the ship intact. Spalling bulkheads and incinerating other internal components is vast overkill in many cases. Glueguns, needle swarms, and hybrid shot for shotguns will be more appropriate for civilian targets.

Imagines, PC's getting ready to repeal the Imperials with cutlasses... then their airlock door gets blasted open by a fusion gun, the surviving PC's surrender.

 

[GypsyComet]

If I knew it was Imperial Marines, they would not have fired that first shot because we would have surrendered before the airlock door was opened.

They don't even need plasma weapons. A Marine with enough armor to handle my opening shot and a Gauss Rifle to keep my head down while he primes and tosses a frag grenade (more holes in my suit than a patch kit can handle) is far more dangerous than I'm prepared to handle. And he brought more friends than I did, is at the peak of his training, and has a ship outside that renders all of my armed arguments null and void.

Unless you're a military force, you don't mess with Imperial Marines. They really are that dangerous.