Basic Training confusion

[Vormaerin]

Yup. There's some value in discussing what the RAW is, if it leads to a better understanding of the whole system. But there's no value in treating RAW as law. This isn't a competitive game where you need some kind of equivalence between groups.

 

[Ol'Weedy]

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." - Lazarus Long

One of my many favourites of Heinlein quotes.

 

[MasterGwydion]

You know... I've not been treating it that way, but it makes a lot of sense and it doesn't make that first term in the new career suck as much.
Now, just have to deal with that former admiral suddenly becoming a drive hand instead of a merchant ship captain...

Yeah. Many many high-ranking members of government (politians, soldiers, spies, law enforcement, etc) take a job in the private sector after they finish their first career. None of them start as Rank 0 in their new career. I think this is a flaw in the Traveller system. If a Navy Captain gets an "honorable discharge" and switches over to the Merchant career, he is going to be the captain of the ship, not a deckhand.

 

[MarkAlexander]

The 2023 update version has the less clear language that he quoted. I have to say, Mongoose's grammatical clarity and precision is not a hill I would choose to die on, but he's welcome to do so if he thinks differently.

I am pretty sure that everyone who interprets it as 'basic instead of the roll every time' either has played earlier versions of the game or learned from someone who did. I am personally in favor of interpretations that produce more skills, since I don't find Traveller unduly generous in chargen.

More skills is a good idea and at higher starting levels. I've ended up with loads of skills at 0. The character was pretty useless. It's not like Traveller has a way of increasing skills based on in-game success. You don't "level up" like D&D or tick your skills like Call of Cthulhu.

 

[MasterGwydion]

More skills is a good idea and at higher starting levels. I've ended up with loads of skills at 0. The character was pretty useless. It's not like Traveller has a way of increasing skills based on in-game success. You don't "level up" like D&D or tick your skills like Call of Cthulhu.

No, but you can raise them in downtime.

 

[metlk]

Okay hold on. You're all saying you ONLY get basic training for your first term in your first career? And you have to choose between pciking a basic training skill or rolling on a table for other careers?

Where is this in the rules? I've been doing it where basic training is what amounts to basic training today, a 6-12 week block of all the basic skill you need for that career, NOT an entire 4-year training regiment. It's not the academy. You then spend the next 4 years in that career, where you might pick up a thing or two outside of that training such as taking an advanced training course. So for the first term, you get all the basic training and a skill roll, and for each new career you get 1 basic training and a skill roll on the first term. I've only played update 2022 so if it's not supposed to be this way I didn't see it clarified that I remember. We struggled with this when we were first learning.

 

[Vormaerin]

pg 18 of the updated MgT2e book.

 

[metlk]

pg 18 of the updated MgT2e book.
View attachment 2081

I guess I just read right over it and failed to absorb it. Lol. Thanks.

 

[Geir]

Only means you lose the initial skill roll for the term in return for Basic.
It goes: Skill, Survival, Mishap or Event, Advancement or Commission. You can still get skills from a Mishap or Event plus a possible Connection, and for Advancement*. And for Rank, if warranted. If Rank Zero (not a good name for a deodorant) gives you a skill, you'd get that along with Basic in the first term.

*It doesn't say you get a skill for a successful Commission roll, but's a sometimes gimme in my book except: The wording of the Military Academy graduation says "allows a Commission roll to be taken before the first term of a military career". To me, that means our Ensign (or whatever) can try for Advancement during the first term, but shouldn't get an extra skill for the Commission, because it's before service start.

The fun interpretation (mine, not in any way officially is what happens because it doesn't say so) is that Military Academy grads do not need to go to Basic, because that would be really pointless, but University graduates do need to go, even if commissioned (especially if commissioned out of school: see clueless lieutenant memes).

Another thing that doesn't says so, but makes sense to me is if you're in a Military Academy and you roll 11 for a Pre-Career Event (War comes) then you don't get the graduation skills, EDU or honours benefits, but you're still (automatically) commissioned into your service.

 

[Vormaerin]

The fun interpretation (mine, not in any way officially is what happens because it doesn't say so) is that Military Academy grads do not need to go to Basic, because that would be really pointless, but University graduates do need to go, even if commissioned (especially if commissioned out of school: see clueless lieutenant memes).

Pretty sure the 3 lvl 1 skills is the intended replacement for Basic, since you only get them if you go into the same service you went to the academy for.

 

[Geir]

Pretty sure the 3 lvl 1 skills is the intended replacement for Basic, since you only get them if you go into the same service you went to the academy for.

Yes, that makes sense, but the way it's written... is kind of odd. Why would you not enter that career? I mean in real life, you might change your mind halfway through the academy experience, but this is even if you graduate, so it seem like you 'unlearn' if you choose not to go into service.

I miss the Book 4 and 5 year-by-year career process, especially with the choice to take DMs for heroism (which at least on the pdf versions I have only appears in High Guard and not Mercenary, which is not how I remember it). That DM is really only practical in an Iron Man process, though.

 

[Vormaerin]

Yeah, the Bk 4/5/6/7 process was a lot of fun, but it did not play nice with all the careers that did not have that option. It really reduced your options to former scouts, military, or merchants.

You don't unlearn anything. There's no good reason for going to the military academy and not going into that career. But you aren't 'unlearning' anything. You get basic training as your skills for the Academy. Then if you go into that career like a rational person, you get the three skills as a result of doing basic again. It could have been much clearer in how it was written. But the whole Academy thing is kind of awkwardly written with strange incentives. Like if you don't graduate, you definitely do not want to go into that career, because it blocks your chances at commission permanently (since you can't roll for commission in term 1 if you didn't graduate, but you can't roll for commission after term 1 unless you have the high SOC exception).

 

[ottarrus]

I do Basic Training slightly differently.
If a Career does not award a Rank 0 skill, I allow the player to roll on the Service Skills table for one skill at level 1. Most military Careers do award an E-1/O-1 skill, of course, so that's moot, but some civilian Careers do not and it seems to me that spending 4 years in a given job will teach you something at a professional level. Even if that skill is Tolerate My Manager-1

 

[MasterGwydion]

Yeah, the Bk 4/5/6/7 process was a lot of fun, but it did not play nice with all the careers that did not have that option. It really reduced your options to former scouts, military, or merchants.

You don't unlearn anything. There's no good reason for going to the military academy and not going into that career. But you aren't 'unlearning' anything. You get basic training as your skills for the Academy. Then if you go into that career like a rational person, you get the three skills as a result of doing basic again.

It says you gain these 3 skills upon graduation, not upon entering your next career. Which means, you do not get any skills from the actual career itself in the first term, except for the normal skills you get for survival, events, and advancement. Maybe they need to change how it is written.

It could have been much clearer in how it was written. But the whole Academy thing is kind of awkwardly written with strange incentives. Like if you don't graduate, you definitely do not want to go into that career, because it blocks your chances at commission permanently (since you can't roll for commission in term 1 if you didn't graduate, but you can't roll for commission after term 1 unless you have the high SOC exception).

 

[thealkaizer]

As there ever been a development, errata or clarification regarding this?

My current understanding using my 2022 update copy, there's three parts in the book that are relevant.

Quote #1 - Skills and Training, page 18
"In each term you spend in a career, pick one of these tables and roll 1D to see which skill you increase."
Let's start here. This says that in each term (general statement), you pick a table and roll.

Quote #2 - Basic Training, page 18
"For your first career only, instead of rolling for a skill, you get all the skills listed on the Service Skills table at level 0 as your basic training. For subsequent careers, you may pick any one skill listed in the Service Skills table at level 0 as your basic training."
To me, with the first sentence there's no doubt that in the first term of your first career, you do not roll for a skill, you get all the skills at level 0. This is a more specific statement than Quote #1.

It's clear that all new careers get some kind of basic training on their first time.

However, the second sentence states what you do for basic training in the first term of subsequent careers, but it does not say that you omit rolling for skill. So far, with only these two quotes, you would absolutely roll for a skill after receiving basic training.

Also note the use of the word may which could be interpreted in many ways. One interpretation that I've seen (by combination of the word may, and the vagueness of the first clause of Quote #3) is that on subsequent careers, on their first time, you can either get basic training and pick a skill on the Service Skills table, or roll on another table.

Quote #3 - Flowchart, page 14
"If this is your first term, go through basic training. Otherwise choose a skill table and roll."

Saying first term without specifying "of this career" is already vague enough, but considering the position in the flowchart, we'll let it slide. It says that if this is the first term in your career, you should go through basic training. But is the intention of the second sentence to:

• Communicate that you either get basic training or roll on a table.
• Or that you simply proceed with rolling as normal without basic training.

Because, once again, basic training as it is described in Quote #2 does not say that on the first term of a subsequent career you do basic training instead of rolling.

To me, there's absolutely no doubts about these:

• If it's not the first term in a career, you roll for a skill.
• If it's the first term of your first career, you get all of the skills and you don't roll.

But I'm not so sure that:

• If it's the first term of a subsequent career, you pick a skill for basic training and then not roll on a table.

If I had to bet money, I would bet that you only get basic training. The strongest (yet quite weak) indicative being that Quote #3 is shown as one single step in a flowchart otherwise separated in steps.

@MongooseMatt Can we get a clarification?

 

[Limpin Legin]

As there ever been a development, errata or clarification regarding this?

My current understanding using my 2022 update copy, there's three parts in the book that are relevant.

Quote #1 - Skills and Training, page 18
"In each term you spend in a career, pick one of these tables and roll 1D to see which skill you increase."
Let's start here. This says that in each term (general statement), you pick a table and roll.

Quote #2 - Basic Training, page 18
"For your first career only, instead of rolling for a skill, you get all the skills listed on the Service Skills table at level 0 as your basic training. For subsequent careers, you may pick any one skill listed in the Service Skills table at level 0 as your basic training."
To me, with the first sentence there's no doubt that in the first term of your first career, you do not roll for a skill, you get all the skills at level 0. This is a more specific statement than Quote #1.

It's clear that all new careers get some kind of basic training on their first time.

However, the second sentence states what you do for basic training in the first term of subsequent careers, but it does not say that you omit rolling for skill. So far, with only these two quotes, you would absolutely roll for a skill after receiving basic training.

Also note the use of the word may which could be interpreted in many ways. One interpretation that I've seen (by combination of the word may, and the vagueness of the first clause of Quote #3) is that on subsequent careers, on their first time, you can either get basic training and pick a skill on the Service Skills table, or roll on another table.

Quote #3 - Flowchart, page 14
"If this is your first term, go through basic training. Otherwise choose a skill table and roll."

Saying first term without specifying "of this career" is already vague enough, but considering the position in the flowchart, we'll let it slide. It says that if this is the first term in your career, you should go through basic training. But is the intention of the second sentence to:

• Communicate that you either get basic training or roll on a table.
• Or that you simply proceed with rolling as normal without basic training.

Because, once again, basic training as it is described in Quote #2 does not say that on the first term of a subsequent career you do basic training instead of rolling.

To me, there's absolutely no doubts about these:

• If it's not the first term in a career, you roll for a skill.
• If it's the first term of your first career, you get all of the skills and you don't roll.

But I'm not so sure that:

• If it's the first term of a subsequent career, you pick a skill for basic training and then not roll on a table.

If I had to bet money, I would bet that you only get basic training. The strongest (yet quite weak) indicative being that Quote #3 is shown as one single step in a flowchart otherwise separated in steps.

@MongooseMatt Can we get a clarification?

Quote #4 - Using the Psion Career, page 229
"Unlike other careers, a Psion takes skills from the appropriate Specialist table instead of the Service Skills table during basic training." Doesn't say anything about using the table to replace the "roll for a skill", but assumed to be the RAW.

 

[MasterGwydion]

You know... I've not been treating it that way, but it makes a lot of sense and it doesn't make that first term in the new career suck as much.
Now, just have to deal with that former admiral suddenly becoming a drive hand instead of a merchant ship captain...

That always struck Me as stupid. If you switch careers, why would you lose your rank? If I am hiring a former Navy Captain or Admiral, I am not hiring them to work an entry level job. They would be hired for a job the needs their level of skill, so clearly not Rank 0 or 1. Why do you think that most commercial pilots are ex-military? Or most PMCS hire almost exclusively ex-military.

 

[WHULorigan]

Yeah, the Bk 4/5/6/7 process was a lot of fun, but it did not play nice with all the careers that did not have that option. It really reduced your options to former scouts, military, or merchants.

You don't unlearn anything. There's no good reason for going to the military academy and not going into that career. But you aren't 'unlearning' anything.

One of the users over on the COTI board had a great House Rule for making CT Sup4: CotI Careers and CT Book4-7: Adv CharGen Careers play together more nicely:

1. Use the Adv. Char Gen Rules from Books 4-7 ;
2. Generate as normal per the rules, but only keep a skills-awarded tally until the end of the 4-year term;
3. When the term is complete, the player gets to choose 2 skill-levels out of those he was awarded to put on his Character Sheet for that term;
4. The rest of the skills are all 0-Level skills (i.e., you were trained and familiarized, but the ones with positive-levels are the ones that you really used and learned well).

This gives you a broad range of skills but keeps the relative levels low (and comparable to Basic CharGen levels) so that they do not yield DMs that break the 2D6 bell-curve during task resolution. And you get all of the great character background fluff.