Balancing Ships

[Locutus9956]

Well not to contradic JMS but the line in the show is actually 'They USED a kind of stealth technology we WERE never able to beat' Past tense. Now it was implied that this was still the case (and JMS confirmed this was what he meant) but the line in the show doesnt EXPLICITLY state this

 

[Burger]

It doesn't explicitly state that the EA's tracking computers were switched on, either! Maybe this is why they couldn't lock on?

Just cos it doesn't explicitly state something, doesn't make the opposite true.

 

[Locutus9956]

I never said the opposite was true, I just found it mildly amusing that JMS misquoted his own script as proof

 

[emperorpenguin]

evidently the satire was lost :wink:

 

[Davesaint]

I disagree. If you go by Canon, there is no amount of EA ships that could ever destroy a sharlin. The only way the EA was ever able to kill a sharlin was by ramming it, or luring it into an asteroid field and nuking it.

I may not be remembering correctly, but I never saw Omegas go up against a Sharlin. So I don't get where you are getting the data for your statement that EA would NEVER win. Hyperions can't go against a sharlin. Novas can't go against a sharlin. Thus, through canon, it shows the sharlin as far far more powerful. Now the Omega was a newer ship type that was portrayed as seriously outclassing the war era ships. Hence, it was closer to the sharlin, but still not its equal. Again, all proveable by canon. And a basis for writing the rules.

Remember, what I am saying here is that canon is most important, but I am pretty much saying what the others have been saying. You start with canon, as that is the most important, period. Then from there you fill in the rest. Canon forms the cornerstone, then the rest of the game is constructed upon that. Without canon you do not have Babylon 5, you have nameless faceless space game. Without canon I want "Warp Whirlwind Shooters" on my G'Quons that have a range of 40, a 12" area of effect and do 26ad of precise super armor peircing triple damage. Oh, wait, they weren't in the show? Who cares, when did that matter?

Since the earthers were never able to lock on to a Minbari ship I could have thousands of Omegas to 1 sharlin and never be able to shoot it. Gee, that sounds like it would be fun to play. :roll:

They were never able to lock on during the war, and they were not able to lock on during the episode with the rogue sharlin (actually they were able to lock on and that was the crux of the issue). BUT, that was an outdated sensor package, the same as what they were using in the war, it was later updated to a current level when B5 got its new weapons loadout in the episode GROPOS. Anything beyond that was never addressed, but it can be built upon.

There would be many things about the game that would be ironed out if canon was used better as a basis.

Boresight - wouldn't exist, canon proves otherwise

Shadow slicer beam - double the range, at least equal to fighter egg thingy if not further.

Centauri Beams - wouldn't exist, I'm rewatching the entire series and through season three they still haven't fired a single beam that I can recall. I have to recheck their assault on the Narn homeworld.

Vorchan being more powerful - if canon were followed this should would be very mean and used much more often.

E-Mines being the end all/be all Narn weapon - So far in the rewatching of the series they have been used once, and for one salvo only. Main weapon of the G'Quon is beams and should always be beams. Secondaries are pulse style weapons.

These are just a few off the top of my head while writing this.

-V

Everything in the script has indicated that the EA was not able to lock on to the Minbari during the entire B5 series, unless the Minbari let them.

As far as firing arcs, there are many instances which you could claim that EA and Narn Lasers are boresighted. They tend to fire in a straight line off the front of the ship, and I don't think you ever see them following a target.

The Vorchan needs to be better

There should not be a single beam in the Centarui fleet, as you never see them fire one.

Shadow Beam range, Eh, I wouldn't be upset if it had a little more range, but not double.

The problem that you keep bringing um Vitalis is that you want the game to be strictly canon. If this game goes strictly canon, it will die a horible death as no one will play it. The game will be horribly one sided and no one will have any fun playing it. As a business decision, this would be the worst decision mongoose could make.

However, as the comedian Dennis Miller would say - "I could be wrong, but that's my opinion"


Dave

 

[vitalis6969]

The problem that you keep bringing um Vitalis is that you want the game to be strictly canon.Dave

No, I would have to disagree. The problem with this particular debate seems to be that we are having a misunderstanding regarding what I am saying especially since I have never used the word strictly with canon.

I said that canon was most important as it should be used as the building blocks or corner stone of the game. The Foundation as it were. Check my previous posts.

Canon gives us the ONLY place to start, cause without it we aren't playing B5. From canon we build the rest of the game. Hell, if we ONLY followed canon then none of the fleets would be the size that they are. Many of the ships are imagineered for game purposes only.

I'll give another example in why I think NOT using canon is a completely flawed concept:

When the Centauri Emperor goes to B5 to appologise for the damage done to the Narn his ship is flanked by many Vorchans as an escort. This places the Vorchan Warships as secondary to the Primus hull, being as they are used as escorts but still powerful enough to protect the emperor as a larger fleet wasn't taken (these are fair assumptions to make but I'm sure can be nit-picked to death by any of us but bear with me :wink: .) When we see them fight, they are pretty darned powerful and useful in a scrap as well. There size also is fairly but not grossely large when scaled to other vessels.

All of this so far is canon to the show.

Now, let the "game" part begin. The Vorchan was placed as a Skirmish level ship that most believe to be a P.O.S. and underpowered. Check most Centauri fleet threads and I would say I'm being generous in saying that 80% of Centauri players don't even bother with it. You yourself agreed that it could use some up powering.

Many have suggested making it more powerful and moving it to a Raid choice, closer fitting its role in the show, which would be based on canon. This idea is nearly universaly nixed fast as the Centauri are already loaded with awesome raid level choices. What would the need be for another?

So, to boil this down, a "fix" to the Vorchan is not going to happen because the niche it should be in is filled by NON-canon ships that never appeared in the show. This to me seems wrong, the non-canon ships should be secondary in game priority to the ships that are in the show and what we see in the show should be the foundation for the game we play, not the eintire game, the foundation.

As for the no one ever broke Minbari stealth thing that has been going on. Sure, canon would show that their stealth was never broken by the other races, discounting the ancients. This is where game mechanics are applied through the use of scouts and such. So as you said, the game is playable.

Canon was still used, the Minbari still have a MEAN stealth, but a way around the unplayability was found using a non-canon method since I don't recall ever seeing scouts in the show.

That to me does not mean canon did not come in to play first. IMHO the entire game should be based on canon. Then where smoothing out needs to be applied for playability, it is done. Regarding the use of canon I am careful to choose my words, I said based, not blindely obeyed.

-V

 

[Da Boss]

I agree with the majority of the base it on Canon (preferably when it is not contradictory or just put inan episode for plot device).
I would certainly concur that Centauri beams needed to be tonned down (anyone against?)and that has been done in 2nd Ed as has been stated numerous times, to the extent - quite rightly of removing ships that are lets face it - Wrong.
I will however say that I still want some beams on some ships - especailly those with Drakh tech. I don't understand a powerful military not having beams if it could make them - I know the Dilgar did not use them- but I thought that was cos they could not make them and the Vree are just odd............The Centauri are supposed to be second to the Minbari (a far second true) and so I think given that description they should have beams - not over powerful ones, not too many - but some. As I understand it thats what 2nd Ed is doing - which is good.
I want to play games with cool ships from the show based in general around the univerrse of B5,
But I don't want to play a game where EA can't shoot the Minbari, Shadow ships never miss (yes even Minbari, not having to make stealth checks of any kind) and when any beam hits any ship half of it falls off...........but that may be just me.