Auto-Astrogators... not that bad?

[rinku]

Just looking at the Charted Space penalties for robot Astrogators (Robot Handbook) and what actually happens with those tasks and... it's not as bad as all that.

Firstly, the skill is available at TL12 and quite a few listed robots have it (the TL15 Omega Ship's Brain has it at level 4). Then, it's a -4 to the astrogation roll, but only a -2 if an individual with a relevant skill like Navigation, Pilot or appropriate Science reviews the plot. No skill level is given on that rule, so even Science or Pilot 0 would count, I guess. And extra time can be taken. It's a 4+ roll taking 1D6 x10 minutes, with a penalty of the number of parsecs jumping. But also, and I think most importantly, if you fail the roll you're allowed to keep trying until you succeed. Then the result of the task is used as a modifier to the actual Engineering task roll to initiate jump - which can be done by a robot without special penalty (unless there are no conscious sophonts on board and you're using that Chartered Space rule).

So... a robot navigator, even with all of that, is likely to make their roll either by taking extra time or just repeating the task until it succeeds.

 

[Condottiere]

In real life, that works because either the task is boring, dangerous, or you leverage the computational power of the calculator.

 

[CordwainerFish]

I have a big, big, big problem with automated intellect anywhere, but

if you fail the roll you're allowed to keep trying until you succeed

I have a bigger problem with this. If I add 2 to 2 I cannot know definitively if I've succeeded [1]; a task like astrogation has even less business being a certain task.

[1] Exaggerated for effect but only slightly. Remember the final exam for the last math class you took.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Just looking at the Charted Space penalties for robot Astrogators (Robot Handbook) and what actually happens with those tasks and... it's not as bad as all that.

Firstly, the skill is available at TL12 and quite a few listed robots have it (the TL15 Omega Ship's Brain has it at level 4). Then, it's a -4 to the astrogation roll, but only a -2 if an individual with a relevant skill like Navigation, Pilot or appropriate Science reviews the plot. No skill level is given on that rule, so even Science or Pilot 0 would count, I guess. And extra time can be taken. It's a 4+ roll taking 1D6 x10 minutes, with a penalty of the number of parsecs jumping. But also, and I think most importantly, if you fail the roll you're allowed to keep trying until you succeed. Then the result of the task is used as a modifier to the actual Engineering task roll to initiate jump - which can be done by a robot without special penalty (unless there are no conscious sophonts on board and you're using that Chartered Space rule).

So... a robot navigator, even with all of that, is likely to make their roll either by taking extra time or just repeating the task until it succeeds.

+4 for extra time? I’m not looking at a book right now, but you can normally only add one step of extra time for a +2.

 

[swordtart]

+4 for extra time? I’m not looking at a book right now, but you can normally only add one step of extra time for a +2.

I think the OP is saying it is an Easy task requiring 4+ and you can take extra time to reduce the difficulty not that the extra time taken gives a DM+4.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I think the OP is saying it is an Easy task requiring 4+ and you can take extra time to reduce the difficulty not that the extra time taken gives a DM+4.

Ah. My misunderstanding, then.

 

[Vormaerin]

Jump Astrogation in CT was a task done by the computer. There was a computer program called "Generate" that produced the jump path. "Astrogators" were only required ships over 200dtons and they were basically co-pilots. Ships that didn't carry their own Generate program used jump paths calculated by the starport computer. This is why X-boats were mentioned as being able to do their whole task without a crew and the crew provided was a pilot, not an astrogator. Someone with Astrogation could do the calcs to travel through Jump space, but mostly they just double checked the computer.

Generate as a program and the jump tapes eventually went out the window, but I don't recall when they first made Astrogation a task check for a proper jump.

The sapient being has to be on board thing is not a core principle of Traveller. It was slipped in somewhere and propagated later by people trying to be consistent with published material.

Anyway, "robot navigators" pre-date robots in Traveller

 

[Condottiere]

Depends on what's involved in astrogation.

If it's just plotting a straight line from point to point, it should be dead (easy) reckoning.

Avoiding known gravity wells, along the way.

 

[rinku]

Yeah, CT did things a bit differently. The description of the Navigation skill makes it more what Mongoose uses Electronics (Sensor Ops) for - using the ship's "eyes" to locate features and plot the interplanetary space course.

But note that CT did not use any skills for the jump process. You loaded up Generate to make your jump plot (or loaded the one use cassette you bought at the starport), then ran Navigation to make the jump. No Navigator task, no Engineer task, just the 13+ roll to avoid misjump whose modifiers were all circumstantial.

MegaTraveller seems to be the first place crew skills started to be used. I didn't bother checking the main MegaT rules, but Starship Operators' Handbook has:

1. Generate Jump vector, Routine, Navigation or Pilot/2, Edu.
2. Engineer charges up the energy sinks, Routine, Engineering, Edu.
3. Engage Jump Drive, Engineer, Navigator's Edu. Both are stated to be constantly monitoring a very delicate process throughout. Crew and passengers brace for likely heavy turbulence during transition. It's set up as a chancy and exciting process - never routine or safe.

So, while the computer is still doing all the calculations, the process is presented as being somewhat intuitive in real time execution. I think that may be where the idea that you need a proper thinking being to oversee the process probably came from.

It won't really matter if TNE used the same ideas; Mongoose have clearly adapted the DGP process into a simplified Effect and task chain one.

 

[rinku]

Depends on what's involved in astrogation.

If it's just plotting a straight line from point to point, it should be dead (easy) reckoning.

Avoiding known gravity wells, along the way.

You have to take into account all the quantum.

 

[Condottiere]

If jumping is like a string telephone.

With the quantum aspect establishing a virtual paper cup at the other end.

 

[NOLATrav]

This is why X-boats were mentioned as being able to do their whole task without a crew and the crew provided was a pilot, not an astrogator

A pilot. On a ship without M-Drives. Go figure.

 

[Terry Mixon]

A pilot. On a ship without M-Drives. Go figure.

An upgrade that uses the same tech base and is only 1% more expensive. For that, you get a maneuver drive, a bit of common area, and slightly better sensors so you don't run into things. MixCorp, bringing the Express Boat Service into the 1100's!

 

[NOLATrav]

Nice.

I built D66 Events tables for MgT2e and a few of the Scout events involve long rides across a given subsector. Consider this yoinked, thank you!

 

[Terry Mixon]

Nice.

I built D66 Events tables for MgT2e and a few of the Scout events involve long rides across a given subsector. Consider this yoinked, thank you!

MixCorp appreciates your patronage. Do come again.

EDIT: The single middle stateroom can easily convert to a double occupancy at no extra cost other than the additional life support. Visitors welcome! Don't mind the socks in the sink.

 

[Condottiere]

Fusion reactors are affordable.

But, batteries are cheap.

I think one of the older designs had a solar sail.

 

[Vormaerin]

Yeah, CT did things a bit differently. The description of the Navigation skill makes it more what Mongoose uses Electronics (Sensor Ops) for - using the ship's "eyes" to locate features and plot the interplanetary space course.

But note that CT did not use any skills for the jump process. You loaded up Generate to make your jump plot (or loaded the one use cassette you bought at the starport), then ran Navigation to make the jump. No Navigator task, no Engineer task, just the 13+ roll to avoid misjump whose modifiers were all circumstantial.

MegaTraveller seems to be the first place crew skills started to be used. I didn't bother checking the main MegaT rules, but Starship Operators' Handbook has:

1. Generate Jump vector, Routine, Navigation or Pilot/2, Edu.
2. Engineer charges up the energy sinks, Routine, Engineering, Edu.
3. Engage Jump Drive, Engineer, Navigator's Edu. Both are stated to be constantly monitoring a very delicate process throughout. Crew and passengers brace for likely heavy turbulence during transition. It's set up as a chancy and exciting process - never routine or safe.

So, while the computer is still doing all the calculations, the process is presented as being somewhat intuitive in real time execution. I think that may be where the idea that you need a proper thinking being to oversee the process probably came from.

It won't really matter if TNE used the same ideas; Mongoose have clearly adapted the DGP process into a simplified Effect and task chain one.

Yeah, they added Astrogation to the list of mandatory skills and then failed utterly to give it anything interesting to do. It's just a 'save or die' check, essentially.

And it just does wonky things with the system. Like the X-boats, scout/couriers, and free/far traders suddenly need astrogators on the crew, which they didn't need before. Scouts should really get Astrogation-1, not Pilot -1, given what scouts actually do.

 

[rinku]

Yeah, they added Astrogation to the list of mandatory skills and then failed utterly to give it anything interesting to do. It's just a 'save or die' check, essentially.

And it just does wonky things with the system. Like the X-boats, scout/couriers, and free/far traders suddenly need astrogators on the crew, which they didn't need before. Scouts should really get Astrogation-1, not Pilot -1, given what scouts actually do.

Engineering is still the critical skill for X-Boats. The astrogation plot CAN be (and probably is) done on the tender and uploaded to the boat's computer anyway.

And Mongoose 2e22 Scouts don't get Pilot-1 except as a Rank 3 minimum. Basic training gives Pilot, Survival, Mechanic, Astrogation, Vacc Suit and Gun Combat at zero for a first career character, or one of those for later careers.

Couriers and Explorers can get Engineer as a Branch skill.

 

[rinku]

Fusion reactors are affordable.

But, batteries are cheap.

I think one of the older designs had a solar sail.

It was mentioned in the original Traders and Gunboats:

Variants: No known variants of the xboat are actually in regular service. Two variant models have been built for experimental purposes. One model incorporated maneuver drives sufficient to produce 1-G; the loss of jump potential (reduced to jump 3) was deemed unacceptable, however, and it was not produced. The second variant included a four-ton light sail (replacing the second stateroom). This model was intended to provide emergency acceleration away from a star in the event of breakout at too close a distance. The apparent benefits from this modification were
also deemed too small for mass production. However, there are reports that some examples were produced and may be in service in the Spinward Marches.

Terry, have you considered M-Drive 0? Despite the listing talking about it only being to keep space stations in their orbit, it doesn't take much actual thrust to move a ship around usefully. Otherwise, a small reaction drive could work as an emergency measure, or to aid with recovery when the jump exit is a bit off course.

 

[Sigtrygg]

A pilot. On a ship without M-Drives. Go figure.

All scouts got pilot 1 in CT, you have a lot of them.