Astrogation question
- Thread starter bsg1970
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The problem with astrogation is that one cannot avoid to rely on machinesalex_greene said:
to do at least 99.99 % of the thinking anyway. The computer could do the
calculations without the astrogator, but the human could never do it with-
out a computer. Frankly, the astrogator's ability to stand in for the astro-
gation computer is only marginally better than the drive engineer's ability
to stand in for the drive or the gunner's ability to stand in for the gun.
DFW said:
No, I'm not talking about that, but the more basic issue that there are no absolute frames of reference in a relativistic universe. Clocks on planet A run differently on Planet B, and a clock in orbit around star A is going to be running differently than one in orbit around star B, unless each of them happens to be accelerating at the same rate. Co-ordinating this would be *the* major navigational issue with Jump Drive and require constant updates. Being a month or two out of date is likely to be an issue, and updates require traffic. The calculations required to make accurate stellar jumps would have to take into account these factors (heck - the GPS network has to take them into account!). I agree most systems are going to have beacon networks, but no system is perfect. Starports D and especially E are backwaters and may not be maintained to the degree expected, especially outside major states.
Another fairly common situation where a navigator is going to be required is jumping into empty space to bridge a J-2 gap on a J-1 ship (with extra fuel) or similar.
The humans are there for non-routine tasks; i.e. weather formations, emergencies, etc. They may, for example, be dumb enough to enter Orleans rather than New Orleans, but they're also intuitive enough to question the mistake.
This is what human-machine interface is all about; the type of 'intelligence' is different, and - whilst a Traveller Intellect program may be 'better' - faster, more memory, etc - there's no reason why it should be necessarily more 'human' in its intelligence than a modern expert system with bigger powers of ten.
Machines are good at situations that are:
~ Time-critical
~ Accurate
~ Sequential
~ Pre-planned
Humans are good at situations that are:
~ Unclear
~ Parallel
~ Spontaneous
~ Novel
The general rule in systems engineering is to assign the right task to the right field. So it's easy to make an autopilot for a plane (which is essentially a consistant aerodynamics problem), but hard to make one for a car (which has to deal with tens of thousands of other road users behaving in a complex manner).
Humans will always be better at oversight roles because we deal with odd connections and wierd occurances, but a machine is safer and is better for a repetative, predictable task. That's not 'letting a machine do my thinking for me', it's getting a competent engineer and pilot to do the thinking for me, recording it and having the machine play it back on command.
Figuring which of the programs is required - i.e. what the task is in the first place, and what to do when you're outside 'normal conditions' is where the actual thinking comes into play. The rest is just mindless drudgery.
I would think that every planet would have designated arrival and departure zones designated when they are first opened up to colonization. Over time these may change, but it would be gradual.
As ships depart the planet there would be no reason why they could not be required to take some updated navigational rules for the system and when they arrived in the next system they sent them to the starport control agency. These rules then would be evaluated and then used to update, as necessary, the information stored locally about the star system the ship just left.
In this way there would be constant navigational updates. Sure, they'd always be a week old, but for a ship that is getting ready to depart for that system, they would be as up-to-date navigational information that is possible.
I'd say that for ships that don't have navigators, you could probably buy a pre-plotted navigational program generated by the local space authority. Give them your destination, ship information and any other relevant info and they could give you a nav program to feed to your ship that would be just as accurate as a navigator plotting their own. It would most likely be conservative, given that they dont' know the skill level of the pilot, but even that could be handled by your computers. Get within 1000m of the programmed departure point and you are fine, or something like that.
Navigators are great, but as long as you have good programs the machines are going to do the bulk of the work. Navigators are just gonna review it to see if it looks and sounds right. Now, if your nav computer, running Windows 2040 has a slight problem in calculating your jump vector, well, it might have paid off not to have slept through your navigation courses at pilot school.
As ships depart the planet there would be no reason why they could not be required to take some updated navigational rules for the system and when they arrived in the next system they sent them to the starport control agency. These rules then would be evaluated and then used to update, as necessary, the information stored locally about the star system the ship just left.
In this way there would be constant navigational updates. Sure, they'd always be a week old, but for a ship that is getting ready to depart for that system, they would be as up-to-date navigational information that is possible.
I'd say that for ships that don't have navigators, you could probably buy a pre-plotted navigational program generated by the local space authority. Give them your destination, ship information and any other relevant info and they could give you a nav program to feed to your ship that would be just as accurate as a navigator plotting their own. It would most likely be conservative, given that they dont' know the skill level of the pilot, but even that could be handled by your computers. Get within 1000m of the programmed departure point and you are fine, or something like that.
Navigators are great, but as long as you have good programs the machines are going to do the bulk of the work. Navigators are just gonna review it to see if it looks and sounds right. Now, if your nav computer, running Windows 2040 has a slight problem in calculating your jump vector, well, it might have paid off not to have slept through your navigation courses at pilot school.
Imeanunoharm
Banded Mongoose
You're doing it wrong. Astrogators are more than just jump rollers.
Oh Shit! Captain! A patrol cruiser has just eclipsed from behind the moon and is on an intercept course! It's weapons appear to be powered.
Scenario 1 with computer astrogator. (Assume talking computer for ease of demonstration)
Captain: WTF! Computer, lay in a course to use the gas giant as slingshot to get us to 100 D in the quickest time possible.
Computer: There are 3000 known objects in this system. Please specify object-body parameters?
Captain: Pilot, aim at the closest fringe of the gas giant and hit it, Computer, closest 10 bodies.
Computer: Processing. Expected time 12 minutes.
Captain: Computer, closest 4 greatest mass bodies. Recalculate.
Computer: Processing. Expected time 2 minutes.
GM initiates negative initiative and or DM modifiers.
Etc.
And yes the 3 body problem increases exponentially
.
With an Astrogator.
Captain: WTF! Astrogator, lay in a course to use the gas giant as slingshot to get us to 100 D in the quickest time possible.
Astrogator: On it captain! *relays a preliminary 1 body problem straight to the pilot. Sets' to work on a 2 body problem, relays, set's to work on a quick and easy 3 body problem, then a 6 body problem, then starts lining up the ship for an accurate jump with a 20 body problem etc, until she's got a probability she's happy with.*
(With rolls and and DMs depending on range and urgency, rounds, how quick the players thought of the solution, etc.)
You see, the astrogator, just knows the precision, he knows when to massage the numbers, he knows what's important and what's not. Most of the time, not necessary, some of the time very necessary.
Oh Shit! Captain! A patrol cruiser has just eclipsed from behind the moon and is on an intercept course! It's weapons appear to be powered.
Scenario 1 with computer astrogator. (Assume talking computer for ease of demonstration)
Captain: WTF! Computer, lay in a course to use the gas giant as slingshot to get us to 100 D in the quickest time possible.
Computer: There are 3000 known objects in this system. Please specify object-body parameters?
Captain: Pilot, aim at the closest fringe of the gas giant and hit it, Computer, closest 10 bodies.
Computer: Processing. Expected time 12 minutes.
Captain: Computer, closest 4 greatest mass bodies. Recalculate.
Computer: Processing. Expected time 2 minutes.
GM initiates negative initiative and or DM modifiers.
Etc.
And yes the 3 body problem increases exponentially
.With an Astrogator.
Captain: WTF! Astrogator, lay in a course to use the gas giant as slingshot to get us to 100 D in the quickest time possible.
Astrogator: On it captain! *relays a preliminary 1 body problem straight to the pilot. Sets' to work on a 2 body problem, relays, set's to work on a quick and easy 3 body problem, then a 6 body problem, then starts lining up the ship for an accurate jump with a 20 body problem etc, until she's got a probability she's happy with.*
(With rolls and and DMs depending on range and urgency, rounds, how quick the players thought of the solution, etc.)
You see, the astrogator, just knows the precision, he knows when to massage the numbers, he knows what's important and what's not. Most of the time, not necessary, some of the time very necessary.
Imeanunoharm said:
Actual:
Captain: WTF! Computer, lay in a course to use the gas giant as slingshot to get us to 100 D in the quickest time possible.
Computer: (2/10's of a second later) Course plotted and transfered to Helm. (Actually the captain's idea was the 3rd fastest route to 100D and the computer has been computing all possible courses to 100D while otherwise unoccupied using its Quantum CPUs )
Captain: Pilot, engage on computed course.
With an Astrogator.
Captain: WTF! Astrogator, lay in a course to use the gas giant as slingshot to get us to 100 D in the quickest time possible.
Astrogator: On it captain! *relays a preliminary 1 body problem straight to the pilot. Sets' to work on a 2 body problem, relays, set's to work on a quick and easy 3 body problem, then a 6 body problem, then starts lining up the ship for an accurate jump with a 20 body problem etc, until she's got a probability she's happy with.*
While fiddling because of human speed synapses the enemy ship has closed to firing range.
Imeanunoharm
Banded Mongoose
boring.
Alternate senarios:
- Captain: WTF! Computer, lay in a course to use the gas giant as slingshot to get us to 100 D in the quickest time possible.
Computer: WTF does not computer. Please restate...
- Computer: Quickest Jump transit distance course laid in and initiated on your mark Captain. Please note: Initial parameters ignored as there are no gas giants within 100D range or we would have to worry about being in their greater 100D range and request is irrational given our greater constant gravitic thrust in our universe captain...
- Astrogator: Carry the two... and the integral is... uhm... factor in the square root of z... I'm almost there Captain!
Oops, hit the wrong button again... my bad, I'll have that in a moment...
Or
Actual:
Captain: Can we get to 100D before he's in range?
Engineer: I can get you 25% more thrust
Astogator: <runs a few simulations on his computer> We might be able to slingshot around the gas giant's moon, but it'll be close...
Captain: Make it so!
Astrogator: Ejection sequence transferred to helm, computing jump parameters from calculated final position.
Captain: And now we wait...
Actual:
Captain: Can we get to 100D before he's in range?
Engineer: I can get you 25% more thrust
Astogator: <runs a few simulations on his computer> We might be able to slingshot around the gas giant's moon, but it'll be close...
Captain: Make it so!
Astrogator: Ejection sequence transferred to helm, computing jump parameters from calculated final position.
Captain: And now we wait...
Imeanunoharm
Banded Mongoose
Astrogator is not doing the calculations you prawns!
He's directing them with the skillzors of a leet maths jockey.
We are playing a game here, and I'd rather be entertained than bored letting the computer do everything. Hand wavery or not.
He's directing them with the skillzors of a leet maths jockey.
We are playing a game here, and I'd rather be entertained than bored letting the computer do everything. Hand wavery or not.
I like..
Sensor Operator - "Captain! Enemy ship just detected coming from the far side of the moon!! Shit! It's weapons are hot! We're doomed!"
Captain - "Navigator! Plot us a least time course to get us behind that gas giant. I want us kissing the surface to get as much speed as possible!"
Navigator - "Captain! You can't expect me to stop playing Bejeweled right can you?? I'm almost at level 503! I'm on a roll"
Captain - "!@@#!$%^&$$ Bejeweled!"
Navigator - "Oh well, all right. Where did you want us to go again?"
Captain - "@#$$@#@!! Plot me a course around that gas giant!"
Navigator - "(sigh) ok. Give me a few minutes"
Captaion "#@$!$##@!!! Frigging navigators!"
Pilot - "Uh, Captain, I just kinda pointed the ship towards the gas giant and redlined the maneuver drive. A course would be nice though"
Captain "$@#@#@#$$!!! navigators!"
Navigator - "Whoo-hoo! Quintuple bonus!! Level 504! Suck me you bitches! Say, where did you want me to plot a course too again?"
Captain - "@$%&%^!!! Toss that sonofabitch out the airlock!"
Navigator - "Noooo...urk!"
Navigator - "Thump! Smear!"
Pirate Captain - "Aww man! Not ANOTHER navigator splashed against the viewport! Damnit! That's the third time this month! Turn on the wipers, I can't see shit!"
Sensor Operator - "Captain! Enemy ship just detected coming from the far side of the moon!! Shit! It's weapons are hot! We're doomed!"
Captain - "Navigator! Plot us a least time course to get us behind that gas giant. I want us kissing the surface to get as much speed as possible!"
Navigator - "Captain! You can't expect me to stop playing Bejeweled right can you?? I'm almost at level 503! I'm on a roll"
Captain - "!@@#!$%^&$$ Bejeweled!"
Navigator - "Oh well, all right. Where did you want us to go again?"
Captain - "@#$$@#@!! Plot me a course around that gas giant!"
Navigator - "(sigh) ok. Give me a few minutes"
Captaion "#@$!$##@!!! Frigging navigators!"
Pilot - "Uh, Captain, I just kinda pointed the ship towards the gas giant and redlined the maneuver drive. A course would be nice though"
Captain "$@#@#@#$$!!! navigators!"
Navigator - "Whoo-hoo! Quintuple bonus!! Level 504! Suck me you bitches! Say, where did you want me to plot a course too again?"
Captain - "@$%&%^!!! Toss that sonofabitch out the airlock!"
Navigator - "Noooo...urk!"
Navigator - "Thump! Smear!"
Pirate Captain - "Aww man! Not ANOTHER navigator splashed against the viewport! Damnit! That's the third time this month! Turn on the wipers, I can't see shit!"
alex_greene
Guest
I am a programmer, and my peers don't think either. Some of them, all half my age or less, couldn't think their way out of a wet paper bag if they were given scissors and an instruction booklet.DFW said:
alex_greene
Guest
He'd have to be fiddling for days, even if he had the reflexes of a Galapagos giant tortoise. Space is vast.DFW said:
