Astrogation question
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alex_greene
Guest
It's still humans who gather the astrogational data, aided by the machines. The machines on their own won't tell you what's there: it's up to the humans to interpret the data.
It will be humans who will want to go and explore the stars. The machines will help them get there, but it's the human who will want to go. The machines will not initiate tasks, and no machine will plot a course without some human making the initial decision to go to that star.
It will be humans who will want to go and explore the stars. The machines will help them get there, but it's the human who will want to go. The machines will not initiate tasks, and no machine will plot a course without some human making the initial decision to go to that star.
I appreciate all the feedback on this, this is far more in depth than the main book goes into detail. I purchased the Spinward Marches book and map pack and there are systems that are 5-6 jumps out from any system, and we were all talking about how would a new group of players venture to such a place with such distance and fuel limits.
alex_greene said:
I doubt that all pilots and navigators have orbital dynamics and jumpspace physics at the required PhD level to interpret much of the detail. They'd obviously get a computer program to do all the course calculations for them. And there's also having to include all the ephemerides so that you can take light-speed delay time from distant objects to your sensors into account, and also considering the proper motion of the stars, which have to be recalculated in every system.
The computer will account for that, and spit out something simple for the humans to do. I doubt that humans would do anything more than do pre-jump checks and hit the Jump button, and hope that the computer got the calculations right (which it should do most of the time).
Sure, but I never anything to the contrary. I just don't see the pilot or navigator needing to do any calculations to actually get from A to B.
Cleon the Mad
Mongoose
My take has always been that an astrogator isn't there for routine jumps. He or she is there for when things go pear shaped, and one has to figure out why when going from a to b, the ship ended up at point c, where point c is located and how to get from point c to point b (or if one must, to point a or at least a new location that is a bit better then point c).
That and it could just be so things feel more secure. Sure, maybe in the 20 years that "Trader Eneri" (to make up a name) has owned his Free Trader, he's never had the astrogator need to question the coordinates spat out by his ship's computer. But Eneri still pays the astrogator good money since there's always that one chance the computer spits out complete rubbish, and/or some misjump happens and the astrogator has to plot a jump from some place they truly didn't intend to go, nor wanted to go. (Assuming the misjump location is a place where they can get fuel to DO another jump, but that's another situation...).
There's also the situation where the data and maps in the computer is just wrong, and the astrogator might want to question said data and do the computations on his or her own as well. That again would be quite a rare situation, one would assume Trader Eneri has been when he lands in each system buying updates to his navigational charts, and then comparing said updates to what he already has to make sure the updates aren't a load of rubbish. But then again one can assume a lot of things for that matter.
Finally, astrogation might come into play when one is mapping out an uncharted area. I can see the Zhodani REALLY trying to encourage skilled astrogators in the consolate to join the next core expedition for instance.
Anyway, my thoughts. If this makes sense or all sounds like nonsense, I'll let each individual decide.
That and it could just be so things feel more secure. Sure, maybe in the 20 years that "Trader Eneri" (to make up a name) has owned his Free Trader, he's never had the astrogator need to question the coordinates spat out by his ship's computer. But Eneri still pays the astrogator good money since there's always that one chance the computer spits out complete rubbish, and/or some misjump happens and the astrogator has to plot a jump from some place they truly didn't intend to go, nor wanted to go. (Assuming the misjump location is a place where they can get fuel to DO another jump, but that's another situation...).
There's also the situation where the data and maps in the computer is just wrong, and the astrogator might want to question said data and do the computations on his or her own as well. That again would be quite a rare situation, one would assume Trader Eneri has been when he lands in each system buying updates to his navigational charts, and then comparing said updates to what he already has to make sure the updates aren't a load of rubbish. But then again one can assume a lot of things for that matter.
Finally, astrogation might come into play when one is mapping out an uncharted area. I can see the Zhodani REALLY trying to encourage skilled astrogators in the consolate to join the next core expedition for instance.
Anyway, my thoughts. If this makes sense or all sounds like nonsense, I'll let each individual decide.
Astrogators are required to avoid hassles with the IAU! 
(Interstellar Astrogators Union).
[Actually, I got nothing - IMTU, I just use Pilot skill in place of this - RW 'spaeships' rely on computer navigation, with pilots trained as backup... the Apollo missions had a commander and pilots - yet they did an extensive amount of navigation... for Jump I can't really stretch to having humans required for the 'navigation' skill...]
(Interstellar Astrogators Union).
[Actually, I got nothing - IMTU, I just use Pilot skill in place of this - RW 'spaeships' rely on computer navigation, with pilots trained as backup... the Apollo missions had a commander and pilots - yet they did an extensive amount of navigation... for Jump I can't really stretch to having humans required for the 'navigation' skill...]
alex_greene
Guest
I find that thought all kinds of crazy scary.Blix said:
That's relegating the human to a mere button-pusher, an emergency backup computer, and the philosophy of letting the machine take the strain is really quite nauseating to me.
A human can calculate a number that's bigger than a calculator's registers will allow. At a certain point, any machine's going to come up to a maximum byte size and either go into stack overflow and start throwing out negative numbers or, if it's smart, it'll catch the excessive number and go into real number mode and print out an approximation in scientific notation, e.g.
instead of 45,423,765,674,374,256,742,634,576,537
you will get
4.542376567437 x 10^28
and all the finer numbers will drop off the end.
It's those fine detail numbers which are essential, and errors come when even a small number gets input in error without a human eye to check that the numbers input are at all accurate.
It doesn't matter if your players are mathophobics who respond with revulsion to a string of numbers just because their teachers gave them a hard time in school. A navigator character will have such a keen eye for numbers that he will likely be swimming in a sea of digits when he dreams, able to interpret course changes and coordinate revisions and corrections for stellar drift with an unearthly practiced ease.
No sane Captain would dare risk his ship's safety to a mere computer without a human to perform the checks and balances and confirm the computer's course.
I suspect that even an astrogator trying to find a way home from a mis-
jump would have to trust his computer blindly, because he would have
neither the instruments nor the time to determine the necessary data to
calculate a jump himself.
Even a system only one parsec away in space is also more than three
years away in time, and to find out in which direction it has moved with
which speed, relative to the position of the starship, and where it there-
fore is "now", would be an extremely difficult task without a navigation
computer's database.
jump would have to trust his computer blindly, because he would have
neither the instruments nor the time to determine the necessary data to
calculate a jump himself.
Even a system only one parsec away in space is also more than three
years away in time, and to find out in which direction it has moved with
which speed, relative to the position of the starship, and where it there-
fore is "now", would be an extremely difficult task without a navigation
computer's database.
alex_greene said:
Infinite precision mathematics with computers isn't hard, just not fast. And as we all know, jump software takes a lot of CPU power.
I play that you don't need a navigator for jumps in known space as long as you pay to have your computer's data updated at each starport to match the latest data, etc. It's like having computer skill - you can buy software or write your own. If you don't want to pay for the latest astronav data, you have to roll your skill to plot jumps, and live with any bad results (no Captain, I'm sure those are the numbers!).
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
hdan said:
Now, since I don't like jump torpedoes and their ilk, I play that a human is required to make the final decisions: a machine solution gives quite a few equally valid results and plots, Automated choices can be made, but they have an ungodly high misjump rate; a human making the choices makes it work, but its never quite clear how a navagator makes the final choice. Why ? Nobody knows.......navigators have all kinds of rationalizations and complex explanations for why they make the choice that they do, but the fact is, it seems to be that its their gut instinct coming from the subconscious processing. Actually, if one wants to drill down even further, I'd rule that the best navigators (3 -5) have les and less baggiage about why they make the decisions they make....they just do it....and it works.
Actually, its a big unspoken secret: Navigation is fundamentally a psionic skill. No-one like to look to hard at that, cause if navigators were included in the psionics ban....well, you figure it out.
alex_greene said:
I guess the idea of airplane autopilots and cruise control scare the pants off you too? Do you think you can do everything a computer can do by hand (at least, without dying of old age in the process)? Do you think people have the time and skill to calculate everything by hand? Do you understand how complex space travel can be?
Actually those "fine detail numbers" are usually completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter whether you round up (or down) the 28th digit of a number - round the first or second significant figure however, and then you will probably have problems. But after even about 10 or 15 sig figs the result is close enough to what you need to not cause problems.
You seem to think that a starship navigator should be a spice-addled mentat or something - you're in the wrong game setting here.
It really won't be as simple as just drawing a line on a map and calculating a few angles.
No sane captain would expect a human to be able to figure out by hand how to translate a spacecraft between two points in space that are moving in different directions relative to eachother, and are separated by several parsecs via another plane of existence (with no assistance, since you don't seem to think that they can trust computers at all). Why would he? That's what computers are for - to compute things.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
Blix said:
I'm not sure the issue is that: the human doesn't make the calculations by hand, but rather has to set up the questions correctly. This is especially likely if the area is one that isn't fully understood, which seems to be the nature of travellers spacedrive. Your own setting may vary.
And, too, autopilots and cruise control still have humans in the loop.
Or not. We are talking about math that doesn't yet exist to navigate a fictional continuum. In those situations, I find a less doctrinare approach to explanation less llimiting in what is, after all, a fundamentally creative endeavor. And even IRL, there are situations where that degree of precision matters, or can be made to matter.
No... he won't. At least, no more so than a physicist or mathematician today would. You seem to think that a starship navigator should be a spice-addled mentat or something - you're in the wrong game setting here.
well, someone is.......and he isn't the one arguing that the setting is wrong. :wink:
Just sayin is all. See below. I'm thinking you have a tad bit of overoptimism with regards to the hardness of math.
I think you've misunderstood how math related issues work with computers. Having a navigator doesn't mean that he gets out a pen and paper and adds up all the numbers, because he can't in one lifetime; but it means he's an expert in knowing what programs to run based on what data he has, what approach to take to solving the problem, and how to interperet the results he gets back after he hands it over to the computer.
So, no sane captain could trust his ship to a person or a computer alone.
caveat: I'm a numbercruncher by trade and education, and I'm pretty much describing how my job works. A big hurdle to being a good statistician is being able to frame a question, pick an appropriate analysis, and choose the answer from tons of data. So, thats what I see a navigator as. Plus, as posted above, a bit psionic.
Ah - as a child and teenager I could accurately out-precision the consumer calculators of my day... (today I'm hard pressed to add two double digit numbers and get the same results 
)
But, even back then, I wrote computer programs to handle larger precision numbers (actually for calculating the 'collapse time' and schwarzschild radius for what we now call black holes...).
Computer programs can and are made to easily handle more significant digits than any known human can.
Presuming gravity plays some role in 'astrogation' then computer dependency is a given - though one could postulate simpler solutions to n-body equations, that would move things in an unnecessary direction (except if one wanted to make astrogation work). If it is that simple, no reason a hand comp can't do the job...
Basically the only rationalization for astrogation skill is to maintain a starship as a 'ship of the seven seas' setting feel or maybe a WWII bomber.
)But, even back then, I wrote computer programs to handle larger precision numbers (actually for calculating the 'collapse time' and schwarzschild radius for what we now call black holes...).
Computer programs can and are made to easily handle more significant digits than any known human can.
Presuming gravity plays some role in 'astrogation' then computer dependency is a given - though one could postulate simpler solutions to n-body equations, that would move things in an unnecessary direction (except if one wanted to make astrogation work). If it is that simple, no reason a hand comp can't do the job...
Basically the only rationalization for astrogation skill is to maintain a starship as a 'ship of the seven seas' setting feel or maybe a WWII bomber.
By the way, since we are discussing within the framework of the fictional
Traveller universe, there an expert program can deliver exactly the same
results with exactly the same probability of an error as the average hu-
man astrogator - so a trained astrogator is not necessary to calculate a
jump, with a navigation computer and an expert program even the ship's
steward can do this just as well ...
Traveller universe, there an expert program can deliver exactly the same
results with exactly the same probability of an error as the average hu-
man astrogator - so a trained astrogator is not necessary to calculate a
jump, with a navigation computer and an expert program even the ship's
steward can do this just as well ...
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
BP said:Ah - as a child and teenager I could accurately out-precision the consumer calculators of my day... (today I'm hard pressed to add two double digit numbers and get the same results
But, even back then, I wrote computer programs to handle larger precision numbers (actually for calculating the 'collapse time' and schwarzschild radius for what we now call black holes...).
Computer programs can and are made to easily handle more significant digits than any known human can.
Presuming gravity plays some role in 'astrogation' then computer dependency is a given - though one could postulate simpler solutions to n-body equations, that would move things in an unnecessary direction (except if one wanted to make astrogation work). If it is that simple, no reason a hand comp can't do the job...
I never saw the task as a simple line calculation (say) on a map, rather the correct resolution of a dissertation level math problem that changes from moment to moment I kind of feel that if it breaks physical laws, we really can't say to much about it -particulalry with regards to simple or complex. But that's my call.
well, yes. Its cool. That's pretty much exactly why it's there. well noted. The rest is just fluff.
The navigator's job is to punch those buttons professionally
Per the basic rules, you *can* replace a live navigator with an expert system. I would think most ships would look to hire a pilot with Astrogation skill to cover that need, however. And on a ship with a large enough crew, it would be sensible to employ a specialist navigator, so that you have someone who really understands what's going on when things go pear shaped.
Per the basic rules, you *can* replace a live navigator with an expert system. I would think most ships would look to hire a pilot with Astrogation skill to cover that need, however. And on a ship with a large enough crew, it would be sensible to employ a specialist navigator, so that you have someone who really understands what's going on when things go pear shaped.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
rust said:
yup.* And where's the fun in that ? All it does is effectively remove an avenue of player participation. Not a huge one, granted, but a dramatic one.
* Well, up to a point. IIRC, the expert sytems are limited to how high a level they can have ? Or am I just smoking spacecrack again..?
No loss - the role is naturally played by the Pilot IMTU. (The astrogator normally gets what - one significant roll per jump?)
Don't recall any hard rule on computer skill limits - but at least indirectly they have rating limits that would prohibit higher skill levels (pg 92 - specializations upto 2 level higher than rating would allow upto Astrogation 9 at least...).
Don't recall any hard rule on computer skill limits - but at least indirectly they have rating limits that would prohibit higher skill levels (pg 92 - specializations upto 2 level higher than rating would allow upto Astrogation 9 at least...).
