Asteroids and ancients -moved from OT

[captainjack23]

That was in the journal of "giant impacts caused by immortal alien lizards doing nothing more than just tossing an asteroid and walking away" right ? Must have missed it.

No actually, it was published by AGW Cameron in one of the Astrophysical journals to explain the origin of the moon. Go read this and educate yourself:
http://www.xtec.net/recursos/astronom/moon/camerone.htm

Otherwise, I'm done here. I don't have the patience or inclination to bother with your facetiousness anymore.

Hmm. Reading it, it doesn't seem to address the issue of impact + followup attack by intelligent agents - just the single impact scenario you want to argue. So, unfortunately, no matter how educated I now am about single event massive body impact it's not relevant.


But hey. Thanks for all the data and finding the references, regardless.

 

[Dave Chase]

OK, then please explain why the rings of Saturn don't form into planets. (This is not an agurmentative question. Its just a question.)

Same reason that the asteroid belt doesn't - the resonances from the other satellites of Saturn keep the ring particles colliding at velocities that result in fragmentation instead of accretion. Or, in plainer english, the particles keep smashing themselves apart rather than sticking together.

Yeah, then I was remembering correctly. So why isn't the blown apart planet affected the same way?

Moon(s) or No moon(s)the planet had a set orbit and the debris would follow that same basic orbit. Even parts of the blown out of orbit would work its way back to either the original orbit or the next one over.

So between the gravity pulls of the system, comets and/or rogue asteriods the planet could be pulled apart even more and therefore be a bit smaller than after it was blown up 300,000 years ago.

Now I don't think such a planet debris belt even after 300,000 years would be as tight as an 'natural' asteriod belt. And I do think that there would be larger than we think asteriods (pieces of planet) in that debris belt.

Also note: I don't think and I could be wrong that Traveller was intending to suggest that all asteriod belts are or were caused by the 'Grandfather' war 300,000 years ago.

And slight different angle of the subject, Depending on the Planetiods (?) in the stellar system there would be some shifting of their orbits with the balance changing when 'Grandfather' destroyed a planet. More eplise, if I am using the correct word to describe it.

I kind of write off some of the supposed 'dubious' asteriod belts attributied to 'Grandfather' war the same why Aslan are not really lions but the first individuals who saw them called them that.

Thanks again EDG for repsonding to my questions

Dave Chase

 

[EDG]

Yeah, then I was remembering correctly. So why isn't the blown apart planet affected the same way?

Because there's nothing to keep it like that. If there was, it wouldn't have been able to form into a planet in the first place. That said, it's not clear how long a belt would last (if it could form) after a planet is blown up. Even if the Ancients could blow up a planet, would the belt still be there 300,000 years later?

Moon(s) or No moon(s)the planet had a set orbit and the debris would follow that same basic orbit. Even parts of the blown out of orbit would work its way back to either the original orbit or the next one over.

The question is what happens to the fragments after the explosion, and if there's a way for them to form an actual belt afterwards. Maybe some fragments will stay in a similar orbit, maybe not. Maybe there are some very specific ways to do it, maybe not. It doesn't seem very likely to me though, and it would probably require far too much effort to arrange given the effort and energy already expended to destroy the planet in the first place.

Now I don't think such a planet debris belt even after 300,000 years would be as tight as an 'natural' asteriod belt. And I do think that there would be larger than we think asteriods (pieces of planet) in that debris belt.

There'll be big chunks and small chunks.

And slight different angle of the subject, Depending on the Planetiods (?) in the stellar system there would be some shifting of their orbits with the balance changing when 'Grandfather' destroyed a planet. More eplise, if I am using the correct word to describe it.

Probably not over 300,000 years. But over more geological timescales, the stability of the system may be affected, yes.

 

[captainjack23]

Also note: I don't think and I could be wrong that Traveller was intending to suggest that all asteriod belts are or were caused by the 'Grandfather' war 300,000 years ago.

If I understand you, yes. Traveler doesn't claim that all belts were caused by GF. Nor does it specify which ones might be, or how many have been noted. Frankly, all I recall it suggesting is that the spinward marches seem to have more than expected. For that kind of anomaly, in such a well defined field, one would be sufficient, I'd think.

Possibly it's denser or sparser. Possibly its younger. Possibly it's got fossils and oil deposits. Possibly the systems extra "belt" is just a preponderence of type S rocks where none should be at all, and the fact that it isn't a nice well behaviod solar asteroid belt is the givaway.

The intentional destruction by GF is speculated; I really don't recall if the planetary poolshot is suggested, or just one of those assumptions that reenforce themselves on mailing lists and forums, and then get taken as written. Frankly, I suspect the latter.

Lets step away from these assumptions of the effects and causes of the war, specifically away from anything more than that some belts seem to be associated with the final war, and not think we know who did it, or how, yet.

Here's a bluesky possibility. Some of GF kids start messing around with a very dangerous technology. They either destroy themselves, as it's easy to lose control of once you hit on the idea, or its harnessed and tested on some random planets; possibly for non agressive reasons.

Lets say, several of the kids develop a way to accelerate huge masses to near the speed of light, with some side effects like a few bits flying off. Or, some kind of variation on the grey goo nanotechnology that can deassemble planets...or a hyperspace based powersource that goes wrong and sucks the planet in except for some rubble. Or, a psionic teleportation, TK, PK magnifier with vastly unanticipated consequences. Or the the MacGuffintech genesis device.

Drop 99% of the mass of a planet into hyperspace, with no kinetic transfer; or teleport it. What becomes of the remains in the same orbit with the same vectors ? Would they follow an impact model ? Would 300k years make them look more asteroid belty ?

Regardless of the original intent, GF is now aware of it, and its possible use as a threat. It's a weapon of ultimate destruction, directly dangerous to him, (or to everything, if he cares about that), created by irresponsible, and easily replicable tinkering, once the effect is known . So, he makes the logical (if paranoid) conclusion, and premptively destroys them using rational and efficient strategies, as enumerated previously.

The destroyed planets were the cause of the war, not the result. And they need not have anything at all to do with "near c rocks".

The results of the war are the planetary craters, ruins and rad zones noted in the backstory. Massive model consistent impact results. But not anomalous asteroid belts.

 

[AKAramis]

EDG: it's pretty easy *IF* the grav-sim you have doesn't have the calculation flaw most of the free ones do...

What "calculation flaw"?

The only free gravitational simulators I know are Gravity Simulator and Universe Sandbox (I think that's what it's called). GravSim uses a specific algorithm for the iterations, but AFAIK it's not "flawed", and actually produces damn realistic results. Not sure about Sandbox though, I could never get that to work on my system.

Orbiter AFAIK is just a flight sim, and not really designed to simulate orbits. And Celestia doesn't do gravity at all, it's just a visualisation tool.

Last one I worked with was 15 years ago, and it and three others of the time had a calculation issue of sequencing: they would get object x, calculate the effects of the other objects on x, then move x, then go to the next object.

The error is that in each frame, one should get object x, adjust x.vx and x.vy, then go to next x. Then go back through and for each object x, adjust x.px += x.vx and x.py += x.vy. then redraw.

See, in the error mode, you've moved each item before going on to the next, and induce a progressive cumulation. It's usually not big, but it can do some odd stuf with close masses.

You probably use something commercial, or at least more carefully done than the one's I've had access to.

heck, I can write the code for the engine in C, C++, Basic or Python... I just can't make a decent interface!

 

[Dave Chase]

If I understand you, yes. Traveler doesn't claim that all belts were caused by GF. Nor does it specify which ones might be, or how many have been noted. Frankly, all I recall it suggesting is that the spinward marches seem to have more than expected. For that kind of anomaly, in such a well defined field, one would be sufficient, I'd think.

Actually the reference is that there are more known Ancient sites in the SM than other areas.

Possibly it's denser or sparser. Possibly its younger. Possibly it's got fossils and oil deposits. Possibly the systems extra "belt" is just a preponderence of type S rocks where none should be at all, and the fact that it isn't a nice well behaviod solar asteroid belt is the givaway.

The intentional destruction by GF is speculated; I really don't recall if the planetary poolshot is suggested, or just one of those assumptions that reenforce themselves on mailing lists and forums, and then get taken as written. Frankly, I suspect the latter.

Are you using only one Traveller source all all the cannon Traveller sources?

Reason is in some Traveller sources it specifically says that they (Ancients) had war machines the would destroy a planet into an asteriod belt.

Lets step away from these assumptions of the effects and causes of the war, specifically away from anything more than that some belts seem to be associated with the final war, and not think we know who did it, or how, yet.

Here's a bluesky possibility. Some of GF kids start messing around with a very dangerous technology. They either destroy themselves, as it's easy to lose control of once you hit on the idea, or its harnessed and tested on some random planets; possibly for non agressive reasons.
...
Regardless of the original intent, GF is now aware of it, and its possible use as a threat. ...
So, he makes the logical (if paranoid) conclusion, and premptively destroys them using rational and efficient strategies, as enumerated previously.

The destroyed planets were the cause of the war, not the result. And they need not have anything at all to do with "near c rocks".

This last bit could be something that I could agree as a potential

The results of the war are the planetary craters, ruins and rad zones noted in the backstory. Massive model consistent impact results. But not anomalous asteroid belts.

Actually the asteriod belts are listed in some Traveller sources as part of the war between the Ancients. So, sorry, you can't leave that out of the OTU but you can do so in YTU.

Dave Chase

 

[Vile]

It occurs to me to ask - are asteroid belts actually more common than usual in the Spinward Marches? Well, I guess it says so right there in black & white, but is that borne out in published UWPs or in the LBB6 expanded world generation system? I assumed LBB6 was meant to be generic, so maybe there should be a modifier in there for the Spinward Marches, so that you get "more belts than usual".

Even if they are silly ... wait, no! :shock:

The Ancients used nanotech! Well, maybe greatbigtech. Giant gobblers that eat chunks of a planet and defecate them at escape velocity in a trail around the star. And, when they get back to new year's day, they begin all over again. This, of course, means that you can't go near these belts because the gobblers wound still have to be there to stop the fragments coalescing ... :lol:

 

[rust]

Giant gobblers that eat chunks of a planet and defecate them at escape velocity in a trail around the star.

I have to admit that this is the first perfectly reasonable explanation
I have ever seen. 8)

 

[captainjack23]

Actually the reference is that there are more known Ancient sites in the SM than other areas.

THANK YOU ! Is that in Spinward marches ? I'm fairly sure I remember reading about the belts, but now that you've produced that gem of a reference, I may be confabulating ....well, from anywhere.

Are you using only one Traveller source all all the cannon Traveller sources?

Reason is in some Traveller sources it specifically says that they (Ancients) had war machines the would destroy a planet into an asteriod belt.

No, in fact, as my traveller books are at home, I'm relying on my all too fallible memory. In fact, I never intended any of this to revolve around counting belts and S sized rocks, anyway. If yo go back to the original thread, it was just a suggestion I threw out to try to help someone trying to make a spreadsheet, and he was curious what traveller said about belts and where any why they might form in the OTU. And then the roof fell in, officer......

The destroyed planets were the cause of the war, not the result. And they need not have anything at all to do with "near c rocks".

This last bit could be something that I could agree as a potential

Yeah, I was thinking more on the whole story -perhaps the secret of the ancients isn't just what GF did, or that he existed, or that the war happened, but rather why he did it; perhaps not just parental pique, or psychotic angst, but rather to eliminate utterly dangerous technology from the hands, records and minds of anyone who might have been able to grasp it. The rest of his story is itself a final coverup to discourage further followup by later races.

Say, for instance, that the planetwrecking machine is rather like the insight needed for jump tech. It almost never happens, but once its known about, it is MUCH more accessable. And now, say the Planetwrecking engine/weapon/force is inherently very difficult to keep under control; or worse, it becomes independent of its ...controller ? Creator ? Summoner ???

....ooooh. A jumpspace experiment results in a new lifeform entering our universe. Utterly incompatable with physical structure as we know it, it feeds on the structure of our universe, and creates a void of jumpspace consistent space, where strong atomic forces are supressed, and volume replaces mass, and all time constants are different !....a seething, mindless but invulnerable cauldron of quark dissolving eldritch horror ! AIIIIIIIEEEE! Azathoth ! AZATHOTH ! PwYll NGarp N'haug -foth ! PwYll na -haffocch ! Do not summon what you cannot put down ! AZAAAAAAAAAATHOTH !

...okay. I'm back. I hate those sanity checks after a long day......

Actually the asteriod belts are listed in some Traveller sources as part of the war between the Ancients. So, sorry, you can't leave that out of the OTU but you can do so in YTU.

Dave Chase

Actually, I wasn't trying to leave them out, but I can see where the above suggested that that was where I was going. Let me try this editing of it:

The results of the war are the planetary craters, ruins and rad zones noted in the backstory. Massive model-consistent impact evidence. But not just anomalous asteroid belts and not all anomolous ones, either.

It's just an attempted summation of my thoughts that at least some of them aren't neccessarily the final product of the war. Amazing how things get swirled around. Although, thinking about it , once the GF crusade started, all bets were probably off as to the intended uses of planetwrecking technology .

 

[Dave Chase]

The reference I have in hand as I type this is GURPS Traveller: Alien Races 3 under both Droyne and Ancient chapters.

I know that some was also mentioned in either MT or TNE or T4, I just have not checked those references this month.

Dave Chase

 

[EDG]

Last one I worked with was 15 years ago, and it and three others of the time had a calculation issue of sequencing: they would get object x, calculate the effects of the other objects on x, then move x, then go to the next object.

AFAIK the one I use does not have such an error (and the results it produces closely match what is described in scientific papers). The only thing one needs to be careful about really is the size of the timestep, but that's about it.

 

[RandyT0001]

The reference I have in hand as I type this is GURPS Traveller: Alien Races 3 under both Droyne and Ancient chapters.

Gurps Traveller is not canon material, it is "licensed" material. Whatever it says can't be used as definitive.

I know that some was also mentioned in either MT or TNE or T4, I just have not checked those references this month.

Now each ruleset and it's corresponding OTU material is uniquely it's own canon. What it says for CT, MegaTraveller, Traveller: New Era, etc can't be used as definitive for any other GDW/Imperium/FFE ruleset.

Just FYI.

 

[EDG]

It occurs to me to ask - are asteroid belts actually more common than usual in the Spinward Marches? Well, I guess it says so right there in black & white, but is that borne out in published UWPs or in the LBB6 expanded world generation system? I assumed LBB6 was meant to be generic, so maybe there should be a modifier in there for the Spinward Marches, so that you get "more belts than usual".

Ignoring any source that isn't the MGT book:

There are precisely ten asteroid belt mainworlds in the Spinward Marches:

Shionthy (Regina. This is the only world explicitly mentioned as being a world that was turned into a belt by the Ancients)
Patinir (Aramis)
Macene (Rhylanor)
Gitosy (Rhylanor)
Caliburn (Sword Worlds)
Zaibon (Lunion)
Gandr (Lunion)
Bowman (District 268)
Glisten (Glisten)
Robin (Trins Veil)

Shionthy is also mentioned as being a red zone because it still has bits of AM floating in the system. This is ridiculously unlikely given that any AM from 300,000 years ago would by now have been eroded to nothing by interactions with the matter contained in the solar wind or by colliding with dust from the destruction of the planet. Plus the point of AM is that when it interacts with matter, both are annihilated - so quite how there are still extra bits of unshielded AM still floating around this long after the initial detonations is beyond me, because you can't get AM debris unless there was more AM than matter.

According to the traveller wiki there are 439 systems in the SM, so 10 out of 439 systems having asteroid belt mainworlds represents 2.27% of the total. You get asteroid belts on a roll of 2 on a 2d-2 size roll using CT Book 3 (or the MGT rules for that matter), which means the probability of randomly rolling up a belt should be 2.77%. While it appears that there are technically less belts in the Marches than there should be, the small difference is actually acceptable given the relatively small total number of systems. So in summary, there's as many mainworld belts as one would expect there to be in the SM if the normal MGT/book 3 generation system was used.

EDIT: Technically, it's 10 out of 442 - according to CT adventure 12, GF moved three star systems from the SM into a pocket universe and that aren't on the current maps anymore.

However, moving beyond MGT - there are less belts than one would expect if the systems were generated using CT Book 6, because book 6 includes negative DMs to size for worlds orbiting size K and M stars, which would create a bias in favour of belts and small worlds because most stars should be K and M. However, the SM was created before book 6 was released, and it has never been updated to reflect this.

 

[captainjack23]

Actually, theres a problem with some of those conclusions; they mix data types - worlds that are described ( about thirty ? ) which could possibly have info about the ancients ; and worlds that aren't described, and of which result it cannot be known if the belt is ancient created (about 8-12 x as many). Comparing without mixing, we see that Shinothy is actually one of about only 30 worlds with descriptions; so one would have to assume that about 1/30 of all systems have an ancient effected belt, and then that a minimum of 10% of all mainworld belts are ancient caused. (how many were actually described ?).

Still, just comparing obs from those systems described isn't likely to be any kind of a good sampling, so I wouldn't go with those, either. Just noting that two kinds of datapoints being mixed is misleading.

That said, as a sample of systems with a mainworld belt, it works fine. SWM does , as noted have the right number of mainworld belts. However, it ignores systems with a belt that isn't a mainworld. All is not lost, however ! There was an additional rating in later stuff (post the wicked, hateful book 6) called the PBG -Population, belt,Gas Giant rating - which specifically noted the number of belts regardless of mainworld status.

In fact, Spinward marches was updated after book 6. It's called...."The spinward marches campaign" (Module 3).

(Aside - I understand it's kind of rare in print -which is shame, as it is excellent - but it is CT, which you dislike; So, its not a biggie that you are unaware of it)

Anyway, it lists number of belts (or lack thereof) for every system in the SWM; so for anyone interested in getting an actual count of belts regardless of mainworld status the data is available.

But, since the issue has moved on from the issue more or less belts (quote seems to be about ancient sites, not belts) , it probably isn't as relevant.

 

[captainjack23]

The reference I have in hand as I type this is GURPS Traveller: Alien Races 3 under both Droyne and Ancient chapters.

Gurps Traveller is not canon material, it is "licensed" material. Whatever it says can't be used as definitive.

Hey, Randy. got any of those red hot flamewar peanuts left ? Toss em over here ! ....

 

[EDG]

The conclusions and data are fine. I am using the MGT SM book to pull the stats from, not any other sources - and for this board that is the only thing that matters. It's odd that you lecture people about mixing sources when you seem happy to mix in stuff mentioned in CT books - I on the other hand was sticking solely to MGT sources in my post. As it is, there is no explicit mention even in CT of which non-mainworld asteroid belts were supposedly created by Ancients anyway - the only world explicitly mentioned in MGT SM as being a former planet destroyed to form a belt is Shionthy.

(OK, I pulled the total number of systems in the SM from the wiki, but I have no reason to assume that's changed in MGT. If you want to count the worlds in the book to verify this then go ahead).

I have absolutely no idea where you pull this "thirty ancient worlds" thing from. I saw no mention of it in the MGT SM book, and therefore it is not relevant to the discussion.

 

[GypsyComet]

The reference I have in hand as I type this is GURPS Traveller: Alien Races 3 under both Droyne and Ancient chapters.

Gurps Traveller is not canon material, it is "licensed" material. Whatever it says can't be used as definitive.

I know that some was also mentioned in either MT or TNE or T4, I just have not checked those references this month.

Now each ruleset and it's corresponding OTU material is uniquely it's own canon. What it says for CT, MegaTraveller, Traveller: New Era, etc can't be used as definitive for any other GDW/Imperium/FFE ruleset.

Just FYI.

Here we go again.

As long as the source is identified and no one slings around the "c" word, it doesn't matter.

ALL of Traveller is a big tool kit. What we have here is people asking for tools that Mongoose hasn't produced yet, but which have been done many times before.

Furthermore, if this is a question out of a Mongoose black-cover book, the "c" word has no place in the discussion. The only Mongoose book (so far) that should be generating discussion of the "c" word is the SETTING book "Spinward Marches".

 

[EDG]

The only Mongoose book (so far) that should be generating discussion of the "c" word is the SETTING book "Spinward Marches".

Which is exactly why I only referred to that book in my post .

 

[Dave Chase]

The reference I have in hand as I type this is GURPS Traveller: Alien Races 3 under both Droyne and Ancient chapters.

Gurps Traveller is not canon material, it is "licensed" material. Whatever it says can't be used as definitive.

I know that some was also mentioned in either MT or TNE or T4, I just have not checked those references this month.

Now each ruleset and it's corresponding OTU material is uniquely it's own canon. What it says for CT, MegaTraveller, Traveller: New Era, etc can't be used as definitive for any other GDW/Imperium/FFE ruleset.

Just FYI.

And Mongoose isn't licensed. :lol:

I guess the world of licensing must have changed a lot. And last I looked GT was cannon Traveller material. As a matter of fact the book even states that all the Ancient part of that book was written from Traveller Cannon viewpoint and material. Loren Wiseman was the line editor and knew what was cannon and not cannon.

Now if you want to say that GT is not cannon to MgT, I can't agrue that cause its true.
And I am not trying to tell you what to use or not use.
Since there is no MgT product out that describes the detail, I refer to products of Traveller that are around and do refer to the material.

Keep in mind that there are very few, true, dyed in the mold any Traveller only version individuals who only play with that version rules and not either make up some on their own or borrow from another game (whether Traveller or not).

So, unless you (generic not specific) are a Mongoose Traveller only rule kind of person, I will stand behind referencing other Cannon Traveller material for those who ask if there are other things out there that can be used to do X in their Traveller game.

NOTE: I am looking forward to the Mongoose Traveller game releases and supplements. Mainly because there will be some new material in them and mostly because it will bring more players in the game hobby industry besides them playing one of my favorite game systems, TRAVELLER (note no version listed).

So there, and don't choke on your peanuts.


Dave Chase

 

[Vile]

NOTE: I am looking forward to the Mongoose Traveller game releases and supplements. Mainly because there will be some new material in them and mostly because it will bring more players in the game hobby industry besides them playing one of my favorite game systems, TRAVELLER (note no version listed).

I am looking forward to new releases from Mongoose because then they can supersede previous versions and we no longer have to speculate ... although, of course, said releases are not likely to agree with any of our standards or viewpoints! :twisted: