Armies of the Fifth Frontier War, Impressions Not Errata

[actionman]

No offense to the author, but it’s BS.

Yes. It's so informed by rl present day procurement realities that it doesn't fit the Third Imperium well at all. The Solomani Confederation with its smaller budget and its factionalized "democratic" political system would be more susceptible to these types of problems. But even the SolCon would do its best to field as many units as possible to its maximum TL.

 

[actionman]

But, the frontier units might not get the latest equipment, or the local governors have some hand in ensuring that they that they are adequately equipped, adequate depending on their definition.

This is a more plausible explanation for lower TL Imperial Army units, although I think forward units in the Spinward Marches and Sol would get priority. I think units in Core and other relatively quiet interior sectors would be the lower priority. It would take years for new issue to be planned, funded, manufactured, and then shipped to the receiving units or depots. Still, the Imperium has been at TL14 and 15 for a long time, long enough IMO for units in battleground sectors to be equipped to those standards. I think even planetary armies would be incentivized to arm to that standard with generous manufacturer discounts and industrialization programs.

The Imperial Army is called upon to fight a major war about once every generation. This means that the grandfathers, the fathers, and the sons would've all seen a major war in their lifetimes. Populations in the Spinward Marches would remember these wars for generations. Military preparedness and military service would be normal. The inevitability of another war would be ingrained in the worldview of the planetary populations.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The original LBB:4 mercenary set the scene for the internal conflicts within the Imperium, the squabbles between rival planetary systems, local corporations or even nobility. I would argue that it didn't go into enough detail of Imperial vs peer adversary... and the rules were still a little generic.

"Traveller assumes a remote centralized government (referred to in this volume as the Imperium), possessed of great industrial and technological might, but unable, due to the sheer distances and travel times involved, to exert total control at all levels everywhere within its star-spanning realm. On the frontiers, extensive home rule provisions allow planetary populations to choose their own forms of government, raise and maintain armed forces for local security,* pass and enforce laws governing local conduct, and regulate (within limits) commerce. Defense of the frontier is mostly provided by local indigenous forces, stiffened by scattered lmperial naval bases manned by small but extremely sophisticated forces.** Conflicting local interests often settle their differences by force of arms, with lmperial forces looking quietly the other way, unable to effectively intervene as a police force in any but the most wide-spread of conflicts without jeopardizing their primary mission of the defense of the realm***. Only when local conflicts threaten either the security or the economy of the area do lmperial forces take an active hand, and then it is with speed and overwhelming force.****

The combat environment of the frontier, then is one of small, short, limited wars.***** Both sides must carefully balance the considerations of how much force is required to win a conflict with how much force is likely to trigger lmperial intervention. At the same time, both belligerents will generally be working with relatively small populations, with only a negligible number of combat experienced veterans. In this environment, the professional soldier will find constant employment. Small, poor states faced with invasion or encroachment will hire professional soldiers as cadres to drill and lead their citizen militias.****** Larger states will be able to afford to hire and equip complete mercenary contingents as strikers, or spearhead troops. Small commando units will be in demand as industrial espionage is waged between mega-corporations virtually nations unto themselves.******* In addition, the hired soldier will always be in demand as security or bodyguard troops, as force remains the only true protection against force. The Golden Age of the Mercenary will have arrived."

*Local forces, equipped with whatever can be locally supplied or bought in.

**This is the misleading part, this really refers to internal deefence, ie domestic threats, rather than facing off against a rival empire (the setting was still being detailed at this point)

***there we have it, the primary role of the Imperial armed forces is defence of the realm, again the missing words are from external peer level threats

**** the Imperial Army does not get involved often in local disputes, but when it does it ends it

*****this is the theme that the book is portraying, the conflicts within the Imperium that the PC scale of things may lead to adventure

******this means that despite what you may think, world vs world does happen, it isn't all conflict on balkanised worlds

*******the concept of corporate wars or trade wars...

the only thing that is missing is rival subsector dukes loaning their huscarls to settle disputes... but I don't think the setting had been developed to that extent yet.

 

[collins355]

Three points I'd make on this mess:

1) There is a canon problem for this book. It quite clearly overwrites almost all existing canon descriptions and representations of the Imperial military through multiple editions of Trav. And it isn't at all clear why. What improvements to the game does this bring? I've got no problem changing things if it clearly makes sense and brings something better to the game. This doesn't. And it raises a whole heap of questions and issues for the setting and for adventures MgT has already published.

2) There is a creativity/imagination problem for this book. In parts (such as the procurement bits, to take one example) it is quite clearly set in the current era, and in a particular place and time. It just doesn't feel like the exotic star-spanning empire of the 57th Century we are meant to be set in.

3) There is a practical problem of things absent from the book. Why have all these military units if you don't provide the ratings for them that fit in with your already published mass combat system in the Mercenary Box Set? Or, if that is now abandonware, provide a new mass combat chapter and stat out the units to match.

 

[tomfreshwater]

tomfreshwater wrote:
"But this is the great problem with FFW the ground combat doesn’t really work."

I'm intrigued to know more about this view - as someone who has played a lot of FFW over the decades (plus Invasion: Earth, plus T4/Imperial Squadrons). Can you flesh out your concern a bit?

Not complicated enough you can keep track of what happens to easily.
In all seriousness tbf the system works but it’s a matter of maths. If you fight 1c-12 against a 1c-12, one gets a good roll, 30% off the other the other one a bad roll gets 0%. The following round now it’s 1c-12 v 70-12, let’s assume the same end result (would still be on 1:1 as you round down). It should result in 1c-12v49-12 the following round but it isn’t, it is 1c-12v40-12. Now for the purposes of simplicity I absolutely understand why. But in lockdown when I needed to fill my time. I allowed it to be a problem and it has preoccupied my every waking thought ever since. How would I make FFW better?

 

[collins355]

Not complicated enough you can keep track of what happens to easily.
In all seriousness tbf the system works but it’s a matter of maths. If you fight 1c-12 against a 1c-12, one gets a good roll, 30% off the other the other one a bad roll gets 0%. The following round now it’s 1c-12 v 70-12, let’s assume the same end result (would still be on 1:1 as you round down). It should result in 1c-12v49-12 the following round but it isn’t, it is 1c-12v40-12. Now for the purposes of simplicity I absolutely understand why. But in lockdown when I needed to fill my time. I allowed it to be a problem and it has preoccupied my every waking thought ever since. How would I make FFW better?

Thanks for that explanation. Yes, I think they went with rule of simplicity.

There is an attempt to do a more sophisticated ground combat system for GDW's Imperium boardgame in the GDW JTAS - have you seen it? Might give some ideas for sexing up the FFW ground combat.

 

[tomfreshwater]

Yeah I have. It’s lots of maps isn’t it. I like the tiny moon with only one or two hexes. Doing that for FFW would take a lot of time but was something I considered. But ultimately a lot of worlds in FFW are largely empty. So if there is 50000 people on a planet I assume the majority would probably live fairly close. So only worlds with high pop or significance would need a map really.

 

[actionman]

*****this is the theme that the book is portraying, the conflicts within the Imperium that the PC scale of things may lead to adventure

Something that occurred to me is that subsector dukes and planetary fiefholders in the Spinward Marches, Sol, and other subsectors on a hostile border might be very busy improving their defenses, as they are able. They would know that they will bear the brunt of the initial onslaught of the next war.

They would be:

• Building and upgrading defensive installations.
• Building defensive networks (fighting positions, bunkers, artillery reference points, etc.) and civil defense bunkers.
• Building protected manufacturing facilities.
• Training and equipping planetary armies and ducal huscarls.
• Conducting large scale training exercises for resisting the initial invasion and harassing occupying forces, so that the planetary armies, subsector mercenary units, ducal huscarls, and Imperial Army units are accustomed to working together (common tactics, battleplans, equipment interoperability, etc.)
• Propagandizing the population.
• Building long range sensor arrays and spy networks.

Activities like this could certainly provide adventure opportunities for a ship and crew, a team of adventurers, or a noble and his entourage.

Things could be more complicated if some subsector nobles see the threat but others are either not particularly competent, or more interested in amusements, intrigue, or increasing their own wealth and power. It would be tragic indeed if there were a serious incursion at a time when subsector nobility was at odds with each other and unprepared.

 

[Perkanis83]

I mean as written the ducal forces and some planetary forces could well be the elite units that comes and rescues the imperial army from total annihilation due to the ducal forces actually being on tech parity with the zhodani enemy. though at that point one starts to wonder why have a "imperial" army? Instead admit that the army is only organized up to sub sector level based on what the local nobels and planets want to contribute.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The Imperial Army as presented in the FFW boardgame is more than capable of defeating the Zhodani.

The problems are:
there is only a limited Imperial Army deployment prior to the start of the war, the bulk of the Army is "off board" in reserve, which is current Imperial doctrine.

Moving field armies takes a lot of ships, putting tens of thousands of troops on assault squadrons and then moving them for months trying to catch up with the Zhodani is not a good use of resources think the planners. They wait until there is a pattern to the Zhodani troop deployments, better yet a siege or two, so that the overwhelming might of the Imperial Army can be brought to the conflict zone.

 

[Vormaerin]

There's a lot of defensive armies in the Spinward Marches, but they are planetary/colonial forces. The entire Imperial Army deployment (other than the "we are totally not here, nope, definitely not" Army Corps fighting the insurgency on Efate) is 4 Lift Infantry Brigades, 3 regiments of Jump Infantry, and one armored regiment.

All the major army forces are in deep reserve in Deneb or Corridor.

Some of those colonial units are every bit as good as the Imperial Army, but most are not. Army Vice Marshal Lord Bryor claimed that Rhylanor's planetary army was 25 divisions equipped and trained to Imperial Army standards.

 

[Perkanis83]

The Imperial Army as presented in the FFW boardgame is more than capable of defeating the Zhodani.

The problems are:
there is only a limited Imperial Army deployment prior to the start of the war, the bulk of the Army is "off board" in reserve, which is current Imperial doctrine.

Moving field armies takes a lot of ships, putting tens of thousands of troops on assault squadrons and then moving them for months trying to catch up with the Zhodani is not a good use of resources think the planners. They wait until there is a pattern to the Zhodani troop deployments, better yet a siege or two, so that the overwhelming might of the Imperial Army can be brought to the conflict zone.

While true do note that we are clearly diverging from the boardgame by this point so what we have is a localy supported army only able to field up to and including TL 12 infantry gear and assorted gear with some higher end gear imported such as MBTs and IFVs. This seems to imply that the army is NOT centrally funded nor centrally commanded but instead far more of a militia that is structured on a subsector or at most sector level command level.

 

[Sigtrygg]

It's not the boardgame that we are diverging from it is the setting itself.

TL12 vs TL14 with full orbital bombardment from meson ortillery... it is over really quickly.

The Imperial Army is a major service equal in stature to the Imperial Navy.

No matter how much Mongoose authors want the setting to change those changes have to make sense, and a TL12 Imperial Army that has fought the TL14 Zhodani only a few decades ago make no sense at all.

The combined army silliness was a GT invention, it should have remained there.

 

[Perkanis83]

It's not the boardgame that we are diverging from it is the setting itself.

TL12 vs TL14 with full orbital bombardment from meson ortillery... it is over really quickly.

The Imperial Army is a major service equal in stature to the Imperial Navy.

No matter how much Mongoose authors want the setting to change those changes have to make sense, and a TL12 Imperial Army that has fought the TL14 Zhodani only a few decades ago make no sense at all.

The combined army silliness was a GT invention, it should have remained there.

Clearly the army has suffered recently then as they seem to have become the dumping ground for badly performing officers and has been getting the do more with less treatment recently. either that or we should treat the "imperial" army as the collective name for the planetary units that are called up when needed so they are therefore expected to be at best TL 12, with noble forces held potentially as the elite forces that are also called up when the marines are not around. with a in potentia command structure for the forces that exist in the subsector that until needed are not active.

 

[Vormaerin]

Even if you accept that Mongoose should change the setting in this way, the problem is that this does not just contradict the FFW boardgame, it contradicts the Third Imperium sourcebook, which says:

"The standard TL12 infantry soldier is armed with a gauss rifle, a sidearm and an appropriate selection of grenades".
It shows off TL 14 and TL15 grav tanks.
And it basically says that the Imperial Army is whatever planetary forces they happen to requisition, but they try to cross train. So they give examples of Army units that are TL 8, 12, and 14 because that's the armies of their source worlds. Other than the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Marines, there are no "standing Imperial Army" units.

On the other hand, Naval Personnel assigned to ground combat duties are issues TL 12 Advanced Combat Rifles (although the TL14 gauss weapons are also mentioned, but not apparently standard) according to The Imperial Navy.

 

[Perkanis83]

Even if you accept that Mongoose should change the setting in this way, the problem is that this does not just contradict the FFW boardgame, it contradicts the Third Imperium sourcebook, which says:

"The standard TL12 infantry soldier is armed with a gauss rifle, a sidearm and an appropriate selection of grenades".
It shows off TL 14 and TL15 grav tanks.
And it basically says that the Imperial Army is whatever planetary forces they happen to requisition, but they try to cross train. So they give examples of Army units that are TL 8, 12, and 14 because that's the armies of their source worlds. Other than the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Marines, there are no "standing Imperial Army" units.

On the other hand, Naval Personnel assigned to ground combat duties are issues TL 12 Advanced Combat Rifles (although the TL14 gauss weapons are also mentioned, but not apparently standard) according to The Imperial Navy.

Oooooh true so we really have both in this book and previous books a case that the army do not exist as a central force but are simply a in need called up militia that happens to overall follow a set template.

 

[Vormaerin]

Oooooh true so we really have both in this book and previous books a case that the army do not exist as a central force but are simply a in need called up militia that happens to overall follow a set template.

Yeah, it calls the Army the "lifeblood of the Imperial Military" and then says it's a half assed organization that is basically useless and couldn't actually do the things it's called on to do. How was it going to suppress the revolt on Efate if Efate's the largest and most technologically sophisticated ground force in the region?

 

[Perkanis83]

Yeah, it calls the Army the "lifeblood of the Imperial Military" and then says it's a half assed organization that is basically useless and couldn't actually do the things it's called on to do. How was it going to suppress the revolt on Efate if Efate's the largest and most technologically sophisticated ground force in the region?

Blood, lots and lots of blood and guts

 

[collins355]

It actually also contradicts itself WITHIN the text of the Armies book. The tanks and APCs presented are not/not limited to TL12. (see, for example, page 111 or page 113).

 

[Vormaerin]

It actually also contradicts itself WITHIN the text of the Armies book. The tanks and APCs presented are not/not limited to TL12. (see, for example, page 111 or page 113).

Not really, the book tries to have it both ways. The Imperial Army is TL12 for "reasons", but they don't actually fight like TL12 because they have just enough better stuff to still be at an advantage against the TL 14 Zhos.

To quote the book: "In the current conflict the average Imperial soldier faces an equivalently equipped force and has a slight edge over their Zhodani opponents as a result of access to a quantity of TL15 equipment in critical areas."

So, somehow they are TL12, but their TL12 is actually better than the other guy's TL14.