Are the EFTF getting stuffed?

[cordas]

I ain't trying to down play the magnificance that is the EFTF, but our only Anti-Tank is the best tank in the game, the Challie. Then in 2 waves time we get the Future Lynx and Leopard 2. Both of which are bound to be very expensive bits of kit....

Every other faction has a number of effective anti tank weapons that can be purchased in a number of different units some of which are quite cheap. Yes I know the Challie is the best tank in the game, but its still one shot killable by everyone if its not in cover.

The only Anti-Air we possibly have in the future is the Future Lynx if it comes with an AA weapon. Every other faction has a dedicated AA unit on the release schedule. I also doubt that the Future Lynx is going to do both AT and AA at the same time, as its not designated as a pure attack helicopter, we use other choppers for that roll, and i don't see that changing.

I must admit was a bit disappointed with the warrior variants as they didn't come with one with either TOWs or Javalin AA missiles on.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

the German infantry carry AT weapons, but to the best of my knowledge, the only decent AAA the EFTF have on the horizon is mounted on their aircraft (of which they have 3)

 

[Mr Evil]

ummmm i think every other force is stuffed V EFTF to be honest, their infantry are cheaper than PLA yet they have armour and fist. for 5 point more they get a tank that dominates a game v the M1A2 if used well, they have an apc that ive seen in one turn take out 3 PLA apcs, and 2 combined with a comand action take out 2 Type 99s (one was a little damaged from a prevouse turn of shooting) the warrior is 15 point more than a WZ-551 and can take 2 out in a turn while the poor pla mobile would strugle to take one out !!! warriors are your IFV ie they support your infantry and can potentualy hurt enemy tanks. 4D10 or 6D10 with command action from a warrior gun !!! thats definatly better than any other weapon in the game as far as i can see !!!

i think the EFTF have got the good stuff, close with USMC followed by the MEA and then the pla !! pla fav - more exspensive than a shadow but cant take as much damage ? has any one else noticed that.

 

[Mr Evil]

the German infantry carry AT weapons, but to the best of my knowledge, the only decent AAA the EFTF have on the horizon is mounted on their aircraft (of which they have 3)

maybe but effectivly their getting 3 types of heli and an aircraft, i dont think enemy air is going to worry them much, the American JSF will probab;ly operate at V'tol or loiter so the AA guns on tanks will comprmise that, every other force will have to worry about air, not so much the brits, plus every force needs a little weekends to fill some time.

 

[Gibbs]

The future lynx may not be as expensive as all that... but I think you'll have to look at the rules for flying before making that call Cordas. It may be that AA weapons can only be used against aircraft that are moving while aircraft in the VTOL style of movement are vulnerable to anyone with a LOS. It may also be that in particular helis may need to be stationary to actually get the full benefit of firing their AT weapons. I'm merely speculating at this stage. If you think about it, while the Lynx may not be the killer bird that the EFTF needs so desperately at the moment, the Tiger and the JSF (I think that's what it's called) will be made available. The Tiger will almost certainly carry sidewinders while their plane will be one of the only ones on the field.

I'm also thinking that though the EFTF doesn't have dedicated AA at the moment, helos are still very vulnerable to MG fire (ie if you put enough of it on them and they fail a few rolls). Those are my feelings anyway, I do see a lack of AA in the EFTF but I don't think that it will be an issue until planes come out.

 

[Mr Evil]

EFT are getting the Euro fighter typhoon, ie a dedicated intercepter, ok for a few bombing runs but in theory should own the JSF in air to air combat as the JSF isnt a dedicated intercepter.

alot of tanks have inbuilt AA weapons as well, and a warrior will make a real mess of any enemy helicopters stupid enough to show their heards.

pla has only a heli on the plans at the mo, wich is a shame as they have a huge airforce, and would be nice to see some pla ground attack aircraft. but i think their strength maybe their anti air ability in time.

 

[Gibbs]

So does anyone want to give away the rules for flying modes/movement? :wink:
I'll be your friend if you do! :lol:

 

[127th Angry Angels]

It's all of question of practical application. We will only know for sure when we have the units and have played a campaign. Until then it's all a bit pointless, conjecture really.

 

[Gibbs]

It's all of question of practical application. We will only know for sure when we have the units and have played a campaign. Until then it's all a bit pointless, conjecture really.

No I think Cordas raised a valid point. If you can only shoot at air units with weapons that are designated AA then the EFTF only have MGs on their challys that are allowed to target aircraft *and* the max they can score is a 6 which may or may not be a valid "target" score on an aircraft. If it isn't then there is a problem, if it is, then there isn't as much of a problem.

It's only conjecture in so much as we don't have the stat cards for the units, nor do all of us have the rules for flight movement right now. Once those are available we can actually make the call.

But I'm sure that MG has thought this through, they wouldn't deliberately leave one force unable to cope like that. And if anyone says "PLA" in response I'll (to quote Wat in from "A Knight's Tale" fong you. There'll be....pain....lots of pain!

 

[cordas]

Ok 1st things 1st, I am talking about the current release schedule that we have definates for. So thats uptil the end of June begining of July. What is on the horizon after that has yet to be officaly confirmed as far as aware, and past experience says you can't rely on long range predictions at all, even relying on published wave releases can be dodgy as plans change.

2nd I am talking about Anti Tank and Anti Air. Not infantry, you get no arguements from me about the PLA infantry being over priced.... they are. We have started letting our PLA player give his infantry a 6+ armour save, and he is much happier and it hasn't made the PLA gods of war or anything.

3rd. Yeah the Warrior can hurt tanks, but would you put two up against one Type 99 and expect them to win? Let alone up against an Abrams or Challie.

All I am saying is that at the moment the EFTF seem to me to be a 1 trick pony if there are tanks on the battlefield. Currently if I loose my tank(s) then my battle is stuffed, the Warrior definatly helps, but its not match in a tank battle. Every other army has cheap units that can kill tanks.

With the introduction of air units coming into the game its only the EFTF that need to rely on the enemy to give them a chance to shoot air units from the sky. What defence does the EFTF have against the Cobra? I am sure it will have a target of 7 or higher, which means our AA mgs are useless agaisnt it (unless it can be supressed).

 

[Mr Evil]

basicly anything at V/tol speed can be shot at with normal weapons as if it was a ground unit, also not sure if its still current but ground units could react to air units completing an action within 30" rather than the normal 10" so your find as we have that often airunits end up with nothing to shoot at due to infantry running into buildings.

 

[cordas]

It's all of question of practical application. We will only know for sure when we have the units and have played a campaign. Until then it's all a bit pointless, conjecture really.

Wanting to put a biting scathing sarcastic comment in here. :lol: 8)

I am talking about the current game, and the mentioned releases. Its ridiculous to argue about what the state of play will be in 1 or 2 years time... All I am doing is highlighting a problem I see in the forecast releases, in the hopes that if MGP haven't got plans to addresse this quickly that they will juggle the schedule a bit to do so.

I don't want to be stuck with a 1 trick pony force, where I have to take a tank or 2 every battle, because if I don't I have lost as soon as my opponent puts one on the table. Sorry but whilst the Warriors are great, I would want at least 3 before I felt happy taking on a single tank with them.

 

[Gibbs]

basicly anything at V/tol speed can be shot at with normal weapons as if it was a ground unit, also not sure if its still current but ground units could react to air units completing an action within 30" rather than the normal 10" so your find as we have that often airunits end up with nothing to shoot at due to infantry running into buildings.

That sounds fairly reasonable.

Thanks for clarifying that Cordas. They do seem to be a "one" trick pony but what a trick! I played against another two players both of whom had two tanks each (one had 2 abrams and one had 2 Type 99s) and I took down all four tanks for the loss of one hit scored against one of the challengers (admittedly there was some pretty fancy dice rolling too). As the game goes at the moment, if you play your challengers carefully enough and you take a more tactical, less gun-ho approach then your one trick is the game winner. I'd be more inclined atm to go for a tank heavy EFTF force than an infantry heavy force for that exact reason. I think that when we see Cobras etc come out they will probably have a target value of 6, remember that these things are massive. However there may be something that modifies this when they are screaming across the sky.

 

[cordas]

basicly anything at V/tol speed can be shot at with normal weapons as if it was a ground unit, also not sure if its still current but ground units could react to air units completing an action within 30" rather than the normal 10" so your find as we have that often airunits end up with nothing to shoot at due to infantry running into buildings.

What about choppers? I assume if they are in hover mode they can be shot? Is there any time they can't be shot at?

 

[Gibbs]

I don't want to be stuck with a 1 trick pony force, where I have to take a tank or 2 every battle, because if I don't I have lost as soon as my opponent puts one on the table. Sorry but whilst the Warriors are great, I would want at least 3 before I felt happy taking on a single tank with them.

I know the feeling. However with the command squad I think that they have at least two tricks. Remeber too that this month hails another 3 variants too the warrior including an artillery spotter :twisted: that's another trick up their sleves. :wink:

 

[Gibbs]

basicly anything at V/tol speed can be shot at with normal weapons as if it was a ground unit, also not sure if its still current but ground units could react to air units completing an action within 30" rather than the normal 10" so your find as we have that often airunits end up with nothing to shoot at due to infantry running into buildings.

What about choppers? I assume if they are in hover mode they can be shot? Is there any time they can't be shot at?

From what I understand V/tol is applicable to all hover capable aircraft of any variety. What this means is there will also be a "move" style of flight.

 

[Mr Evil]

3rd. Yeah the Warrior can hurt tanks, but would you put two up against one Type 99 and expect them to win? Let alone up against an Abrams or Challie.

.

well 2 warriors V a type 99 will win. a type 99 needs a 7 to hit with 1 dice if enemy are in open, while the warriors between them are pelting out 8D10 per turn and need 8s and will play the long game rather than the single lucky hit game, you kill a warrioe there are still another 4D10 comming in.

2 warriors and a comamnd section is 425 points and will wack out 10D10 per turn compared to a single dice that if gets above average will kill but reduce enemy to 6D10 per turn, thing is the the warriors need averages and a few luckies to take out the tank in one turn while the tank gets one chance and needs a above average roll, per turn, longer it takes the bigger risk of tank going bang.

now multiply the tanks and Warriors and you suddenly get warriors ganging up on the tanks taking one out per turn with mass fire and loosing the odd warrior.

do EFT have a anti tank problem ? def not if you think about mass heavy firepower as a method of killing a tank. the pla get 1 stit pet turn with a their rocket launcher but range is so short there shoot and die to retaliation fire, so id say the pla have the anti tank problem, so far pla have trouble getting close enough to warriors to kill them and have to resort to apc ramming tactics. (best anti tank weapon the pla have is the APC ram)

reason why people go wow on shadows is their used in mass, try the same with warriors, and people scream ooooaaachhhhhh watch entire ranks of shadows exsplode.

 

[cordas]

Thanks for clarifying that Cordas. They do seem to be a "one" trick pony but what a trick! I played against another two players both of whom had two tanks each (one had 2 abrams and one had 2 Type 99s) and I took down all four tanks for the loss of one hit scored against one of the challengers (admittedly there was some pretty fancy dice rolling too). As the game goes at the moment, if you play your challengers carefully enough and you take a more tactical, less gun-ho approach then your one trick is the game winner. I'd be more inclined atm to go for a tank heavy EFTF force than an infantry heavy force for that exact reason. I think that when we see Cobras etc come out they will probably have a target value of 6, remember that these things are massive. However there may be something that modifies this when they are screaming across the sky.

I am getting scared that if I take Challies and put them in cover of suffereing physical hurt, or having no opponents to play against. I do do the Challie dance using command squads, but again that is something that is going too rapidly have me suffering physical damage or a distinct lack of opponents.

If I take Challies and put them in the open I have them kill shotted on a regular basis, but my opponents don't seem to notice or care about that.... mix this with not having anything else to deal with tanks and I have a problem. At the moment I feel I am being backed into a one trick (in 2 diffrerent flavours) army, and don't want that.

Whilst the Cobra's are huge they are also very heavily armoured. If they are target 6+, with anything less than a 2+ armour then I will not only be suprised but arguing that they are too soft. They shouldn't be taken out by MG fire, thats already the brief for the Apache.... so why would they take a step backwards in that department. I see them as being target 7+ and probably a 3+ armour save.

 

[Gibbs]

3rd. Yeah the Warrior can hurt tanks, but would you put two up against one Type 99 and expect them to win? Let alone up against an Abrams or Challie.

.

well 2 warriors V a type 99 will win. a type 99 needs a 7 to hit with 1 dice if enemy are in open, while the warriors between them are pelting out 8D10 per turn and need 8s and will play the long game rather than the single lucky hit game, you kill a warrioe there are still another 4D10 comming in.

2 warriors and a comamnd section is 425 points and will wack out 10D10 per turn compared to a single dice that if gets above average will kill but reduce enemy to 6D10 per turn, thing is the the warriors need averages and a few luckies to take out the tank in one turn while the tank gets one chance and needs a above average roll, per turn, longer it takes the bigger risk of tank going bang.

now multiply the tanks and Warriors and you suddenly get warriors ganging up on the tanks taking one out per turn with mass fire and loosing the odd warrior.

do EFT have a anti tank problem ? def not if you think about mass heavy firepower as a method of killing a tank. the pla get 1 stit pet turn with a their rocket launcher but range is so short there shoot and die to retaliation fire, so id say the pla have the anti tank problem, so far pla have trouble getting close enough to warriors to kill them and have to resort to apc ramming tactics. (best anti tank weapon the pla have is the APC ram)

reason why people go wow on shadows is their used in mass, try the same with warriors, and people scream ooooaaachhhhhh watch entire ranks of shadows exsplode.

I've actually seen a warrior take down 6 technicals in a turn! Ouuuch! That's a good point about the warrior but there is the issue to do with armour saves too, the gun only has a -2 to armour penalty. You'd never survive with those sorts of odds against and abrams, it has a 50/50 chance of taking down a warrior if the warrior isn't in cover.

 

[Gibbs]

I am getting scared that if I take Challies and put them in cover of suffereing physical hurt, or having no opponents to play against. I do do the Challie dance using command squads, but again that is something that is going too rapidly have me suffering physical damage or a distinct lack of opponents.

If I take Challies and put them in the open I have them kill shotted on a regular basis, but my opponents don't seem to notice or care about that.... mix this with not having anything else to deal with tanks and I have a problem. At the moment I feel I am being backed into a one trick (in 2 diffrerent flavours) army, and don't want that.

Whilst the Cobra's are huge they are also very heavily armoured. If they are target 6+, with anything less than a 2+ armour then I will not only be suprised but arguing that they are too soft. They shouldn't be taken out by MG fire, thats already the brief for the Apache.... so why would they take a step backwards in that department. I see them as being target 7+ and probably a 3+ armour save.

That's interesting, when I play against others and they have challies I almost expect them to sit in cover and it doesn't bother me, I know that you need to adapt your tactics to avoid the challengers. I usually try to distract them and go for the enemy infantry to get to their shatter point. I've never actually successfully taken down a chally but it hasn't stopped me beating the EFTF. Somehow I think that, while you certainly have a valid point, your opponents should be able to accept that that is what challies will do and are best at and should try to think about a way around that tactic, not get angry at the palyer.