Aquilonia: some suggestions for further sourcebooks

[René]

The following lines are not intended to spread negativity, but I write them as a constructive critic.

Imho the Aquilonia book could have been 50 (out of 200) pages shorter (and cheaper!) without any significant loss of content.

Rude statement? Let's explain what I mean:

There are 13 pages about the Aquilonian subraces and what classes they favour and how to distribute the skills for labourers, aristocrats, clergy and free townsmen for each subrace.
I don't see to what purpose: the various skill and feat suggestions are almost always obvious and that e.g. Bossonians are often Soldiers and Borderers is as little a surprise as the fact that their Scholars are not the sorcerous type.
I don't want to bore you with more examples, everyone who has a copy can look at the various entries.

Further there are 9 pages about the geography of the Westermarck. Though the Westermarck is a province of Aquilonia, and one full of potential adventure, all this information is already in AtTR. So for a guy like me who owns AtTR it's just a needless repetition.

3rd point: Aquilonia gives 28 pages with stats for a lot of NPCs. I know this issue has been discussed with AtTR, but for sake of completion I'd like to give some examples from Aquilonia: is there really a need of 3 types of Aquilonian archers, 3 types of Poitainian archers and 3 types of Bossonian archers? Did someone miss stats for 3 types of Sample Peasants, 3 types of Sample Tavern Employees, 3 types of Sample Village Management guys? Plus several pages of stats for sample Pikemen, Knights (Aquilonian, Poitainian), Men at Arms, Mounted Men at Arms etc.?
I felt like I bought a Tabletop Game where unit stats are everything...
Maybe I'm a little extreme, but who needs stats for Commoners at all? In a fight there shouldn't be much difference between a 1st level prostitute and a 5th level apothecary. And outside a fight every GM is able to create the 2-3 stats needed on the fly.

Last point: Imho the chapter Important Aquilonian Urban Centres is disappointing: you get a short description of the town, followed by some vital stats; then comes a listing of the several guilds and wards, which are mostly done with copy+paste (this doesn't contribute to atmosphere and an individual idea of the town), with different numbers for acres, structures and professions of the guild members.
Does this detailed listing of guilds and wards help to improve your game? My game isn't improved by that: I got an impression of the towns out of the fist short description and the short stat block. What follows doesn't help: it's a listing without individual flavor.
There are of course exceptions like Sicas or Tarantia, but they are exceptions because there is descriptive content besides the numbers of bakers, flower sellers, rug makers and hay merchants etc.

These 50 pages would be put to a much better use if Mongoose would have inlcuded an adventure.


Like I said in the beginning these lines are intended to make a top RPG even better and not to criticize because I'm in a bad mood.
And no, I'm not feeling ripped off (like the guy who started the Shadizar map thread), and I appreciate the work of Vincent Darlage (Hyboria's Fiercest e.g is located in a galaxy, WotC will never reach).

So I hope I will not get crucified...

 

[DasClay]

since everyone is just reading and not replying, Ill post first with....

Hmmmm, I can see your point but I personally find the stats useful, who knows maybe one day the commoners decide to revolt and you need them for combat, or mass combat....
And not everyone is a specialist in there job, I mean havent you ever taken a job doing something that you really didnt know a whole lot about, but you wanted to learn. Not every shop owner has a 25 bluff or sense motive. And if you work alot sometimes you need stats to make up a quick game, or you have players that try to get off on killing towns people...

But I do agree that the 50+ bucks I spent on the main book, and about 30 avg. on all the others does feel alittle....much

 

[Raven Blackwell]

I haven't read it yet. My players hate Aquilonia- something to do with 3 sorcerers in the party makes them want to avoid the center of Mitran power.

I am sure I'll get to it....and I'm sure I'll have something to say. 8)

Raven, whose PCs are cheering for the Picts come the events of Across the Black River

 

[VincentDarlage]

I will keep all of that in mind.

Of course, with anything I write, some of the material people will find useful, and others will find the same material useless. I put in stuff I found useful for myself.

As for the NPCs, I use them as a basis to build more interesting characters, not really to populate the local store. If I want a clerk who has made a deal with a demon, I can put scholar levels on top of the sample clerk, giving him the skills and stuff a clerk would have, plus the new scholar stuff; likewise, a prostitute whose town is plundered may take up arms and start adding levels as a barbarian or soldier as she seeks vengeance - thus it is easier for me to retain her background and then add to it.

Also, if you want to add a werewolf or vampire template to one of those kinds of characters, the NPC stat can also be useful.

Thank you for the feedback. I will keep it in mind as I continue to write and learn. I want the product line (and my writing) to keep getting better and better too.

 

[Foxworthy]

Further there are 9 pages about the geography of the Westermarck. Though the Westermarck is a province of Aquilonia, and one full of potential adventure, all this information is already in AtTR. So for a guy like me who owns AtTR it's just a needless repetition.

Yes but that's very helpful for a guy like me who doesn't own AtTR. The information in the book about skills sets for the sub races seemed quite helpful when I had people making up new Aquilonian characters so they could get a better feel. The premade NPC's ie Conan and the other stats to me aren't worth it, but the premade generic NPC make my life a lot easier. I also found the Hard Sell chart in the book very helpful.

The thing about sourcebooks is that they will either hit or miss with some people. It's hard to make a sourcebook to please everyone all the time. I would have liked to see more on fairs and pagantry as that seem liked a fun diversion that I could pad a adventure with.

But I agree about the urban centers, I was wanting for more when I read them. But the adventure seeds were very good. They gave me some pretty good ideas for adventures if my players ever get back to Aquilonia.

 

[thulsa]

Aquilonia gives 28 pages with stats for a lot of NPCs. I know this issue has been discussed with AtTR, but for sake of completion I'd like to give some examples from Aquilonia: is there really a need of 3 types of Aquilonian archers, 3 types of Poitainian archers and 3 types of Bossonian archers? Did someone miss stats for 3 types of Sample Peasants, 3 types of Sample Tavern Employees, 3 types of Sample Village Management guys? Plus several pages of stats for sample Pikemen, Knights (Aquilonian, Poitainian), Men at Arms, Mounted Men at Arms etc.?
I felt like I bought a Tabletop Game where unit stats are everything...
Maybe I'm a little extreme, but who needs stats for Commoners at all? In a fight there shouldn't be much difference between a 1st level prostitute and a 5th level apothecary. And outside a fight every GM is able to create the 2-3 stats needed on the fly.

I agree that stats for Commoners are (mostly) of little use, but in general, having all these premade NPCs (ie., archers, mercenaries, pikemen, etc.) is very useful as it saves a lot of work on the DM's part when preparing an adventure. At the very least, they can be a basis for the DM upon which he can customize. And who knows when the stats for a 5th-level prostitute might come in handy? The NPC stat blocks are some of the most useful parts of all the books (Pirate Isles, Shadizar, etc.).

But the adventure seeds were very good. They gave me some pretty good ideas for adventures if my players ever get back to Aquilonia.

There are a lot of adventure ideas in the book, that's for sure. However, many of the plots strike me as better suited for a historical medieval RPG, not a game of swords and sorcery. I really cannot picture REH making a Conan story out of the following adventure seed (from the Aquilonia book): "Angry at a perceived slight, a commoner with uncommon archery skills begins to kill knights from range, shooting arrows with finesse into them and their horses."

All of Howard's Conan stories had an element of supernatural horror or monsters in them. IMHO, adventures in the Conan RPG should be all about sorcerers rising from the dead, ape-men in lost cities, and shaven-headed snake-priests in their serpent-haunted temples; not about angry commoners with a bow...

- thulsa

 

[rigante]

thulsa:

All of Howard's Conan stories had an element of supernatural horror or monsters in them. IMHO, adventures in the Conan RPG should be all about sorcerers rising from the dead, ape-men in lost cities, and shaven-headed snake-priests in their serpent-haunted temples; not about angry commoners with a bow...

I like to throw in a simple plot like that now and again as either a diversion or an interlude between serious adventures. It amuses me no end to see my players hunting around for some deep meaningful/supernatural mystery, when really it is simply a lone psycho who has gone postal.

You can't do it too often as it becomes to easy to spot, and I would not want to. However it is great for keeping your players on their toes and with a sense of perspective.

David

 

[The King]

For my part I would appreciate the following contents in the regional sourcebooks:
1st part: regional information
2st part: a NPC digest
3rd part: 2-3 scenarios covering the information given in the book.

This means that this kind of regional sourcebooks will be more than just useful information on a given kingdom but also applicable matter for the GM and the PC's alike.

 

[FuryMaster]

I like the NPC stats in all of the Conan Source books especially Aqulonia. While they can be useful for preparing a game, they are most useful when my players go off the planned scenario path (happens all the time) forcing me to create content on the fly. I've gotten quite good over the years at creating content on the fly, but the most difficult part of this is when you need stats...and the pre-generated stats in these books are great. There are so many of them that my 'on the fly' NPCs will have variety.

I do agree that more city content would have been great, my only real issue with a fantastic book...I think Aquilonia should be the model for future regional /national sourcebooks

FuryMaster

 

[Paluka]

I think a lot of the problem is caused by the d20 system itself. NPCs are not easy to come up with on the fly under the d20 rules, so many GMs like to have pages devoted to typical statlines for a variety of NPCs.
Personally, I dislike d20 so much at this point that I would like the sourcebooks to be much shorter/cheaper and very rules light. This way I can get nearly full use out of them even if I don't want to play d20. Mongoose has probably sold many copies of The Road of Kings to people who have no intention of playing d20.

 

[Faraer]

All of Howard's Conan stories had an element of supernatural horror or monsters in them. IMHO, adventures in the Conan RPG should be all about sorcerers rising from the dead, ape-men in lost cities, and shaven-headed snake-priests in their serpent-haunted temples; not about angry commoners with a bow...

This is an interesting question.

The supernatural content of the Conan stories is influenced by the fact that they were written for a specific market, Weird Tales, whereas the Kull stories, written for wider markets, didn't always have that element; it isn't central to all the Conan stories; and it's easy to imagine stories like Howard's 'straight' historical adventures featuring Conan or other Hyborian Age characters.

It's plausible that the published stories represent the 'gory highlights' of Conan's career, and we shouldn't infer that every village he passed through harboured a supernatural threat. The question then is, as GMs do we want to emulate the Conan stories themselves or the world that they imply, or in what mixture?

I don't think there's a serious argument against Paluka's point about d20. Those bulky, tedious-to-audit stat blocks infest d20 sourcebooks generally. A ruleset such as HeroQuest can represent a minor NPC with his four or five most pertinent characteristics -- which can be any adjective, verb or noun -- and a number indicating the extent of each. Compare to d20, which has a whole additional level of rules (the level of class-levels and abilities) which must be laboriously worked through, at least for published works, but doesn't figure in play.

 

[thulsa]

The supernatural content of the Conan stories (...) isn't central to all the Conan stories; and it's easy to imagine stories like Howard's 'straight' historical adventures featuring Conan or other Hyborian Age characters.

Well, last time I checked there wasn't a single REH Conan story that did not have some kind of supernatural theme. I'm going by the following list:

The Frost-Giant's Daughter | The God in the Bowl | The Tower of the Elephant | The Hall of the Dead | Rogues in the House | The Hand of Nergal | Shadows in the Moonlight | Black Colossus | Queen of the Black Coast | The Snout in the Dark | The Slithering Shadow | A Witch Shall Be Born | The Devil in Iron | The People of the Black Circle | Shadows in Zamboula | Drums of Tombalku | The Vale of Lost Women | The Pool of the Black One | Beyond the Black River | The Black Stranger | Red Nails | Jewels of Gwahlur | Wolves Beyond the Border | The Phoenix on the Sword | The Scarlet Citadel | The Hour of the Dragon

There's usually at least one monster, or sorcerer/shaman, or both, in each story. And I would say this supernatural content is quite important to the overall feel of the story. I greatly enjoy all REH's writing, historical and fantasy, but the Conan stories belong to the swords & sorcery genre (and thus the sorcery part is half the fun!).

If you want to throw in a more mundane plot to break up the tension between encounters with monsters and magicians (as rigante pointed out) that's fine. However, when Real Life limits the time available to play the Conan RPG, I for one would like each session to have that definite swords & sorcery feel. (You could say that real life provides sufficient break between the supernatural adventures ).

It's plausible that the published stories represent the 'gory highlights' of Conan's career, and we shouldn't infer that every village he passed through harboured a supernatural threat. The question then is, as GMs do we want to emulate the Conan stories themselves or the world that they imply, or in what mixture?

I agree that realistically, not every day should be filled with supernatural menance. But, as said above, when gaming time is at a premium, I for one would like to emulate the Conan stories, with a mix of swordplay, monsters and magic. The episodic nature of adventures that the Conan RPG seems to advocate in places also fits in with such a view.

- thulsa

 

[René]

Maybe a way to satisfie the guys who want a lot of stats and the ones who want more content instead, is the way Pirate Isles handle this.
I don't have the book at hand, but wasn't there a general Marine stat block followed by only two pages of variants for the various nations, like "Scimitar instead of Arming Sword" and "Tumble +1, Appraise -1"?

 

[Faraer]

I mostly agree with that, thulsa, though I reiterate that the weird element is much smaller and more peripheral in some Conan stories than others, and I suspect that if Howard had not been writing specifically for Farnsworth Wright at Weird Tales not all the stories would have been explicitly weird -- as those of his other sword-and-sorcery heroes are not. When Roy Thomas adapted non-Conan, non-weird stories for the comic he would add a supernatural element, and this was sometimes gratuitous, surplus to the story's plot and themes. Another factor is that if you continually use weird stuff in weekly gaming sessions it will get familiar -- and potentially unstrange, without excellent GMs and players -- more quickly than with, say, the original stories appearing on average every few months.

 

[The Warlord]

I think a lot of the problem is caused by the d20 system itself. NPCs are not easy to come up with on the fly under the d20 rules, so many GMs like to have pages devoted to typical statlines for a variety of NPCs.

I'm a little confused why everyone seems to go through all this trouble iwth NPCs. I mean they only really need about 4 stats. HPs, DR, Attack Value, and Damage. Those 'core four' have direct results on the PCs actions, most of the others are all just for fluff. Heck, I throw out NPCs all the time using the above method.

Wanna contest skills? I just throw a d20, and compare results with the player. Now if it's the village strongman or mystic I'll add a few points to the roll, but otherwise a good 90% of the numbers on these NPC stat lines go unused. Why does bar-thug 'A', need a page of stats, when he's just there for a quick brawl to get the evening rolling? Does his Wisdom matter? No. If a PC does find a way to bring it in to play, pick a low number. Done.

Now, major NPCs I put a little more into, as they help the world come alive. Of course, all this is easy for me as I come from many years of Feng Shui (the game).

 

[ReptileJK]

Rene,

While I respect your opinion, and you do make some valid points, I have to (overall) disagree with you.

NPC stats (whether they are for extraordinary or mundane characters) are of great use to me. You never know when they may come in handy (if you're like me and you forget to come up with stats for every NPC that may be encountered in the game). You can just pick up the book and there they are, basically pre-made for use. And as far as having three examples of each, in my opinion, the more choices the better.

This also holds true of the pages regarding what the Aquilonia sub-races prefer. These pages are a good way to give players hints at what they should select when leveling up if they feel overwhelmed (for example, there are SO many feats to choose from that with those examples you can say: "Well, an Argossian may be more likely to take feat X").

I like to write my own adventures, so putting detailed adventures in the book, or "creating a campaign" information would be of absolutely no use to me (the two or three pages of adventure hooks is fine). I know some really enjoy that type of info, but for my money, I'd rather have as much detailed info on the society/inhabitants/government/etc. of a region as possible. Aquilonia offers this in spades.

If I had a qualm with the book, it is not in the written content, but in the lack of maps. This is a minor point, but it would have been nice to have a few maps (of cities, regions, etc.)

 

[Hyborian Apeman]

I am going to throw in a voice in favor of the NPC stats. For me, it is still somewhat daunting to make sure I include all of the racial features when making up stats on the fly.

My party went a direction I didn't expect (like that ever happens to DMs), and I need some Bossonian archers stat. The 2nd level stats provided in AtFW fit the bill perfectly. Developing a 2nd level soldier (3+ feats, equipment, not to mention Bossonian racial features) would have taken me longer than the 19 seconds it took me to flip to the page and say, "roll initiative."

Not that I want a majority of the material to contain NPC stats, but overall I am fairly content with the mix of material.

 

[sanseveria]

I'm torn between the two sides here. I like the NPC stats, allot! However, what I would like to see is one book of stats, filled with stats for every character type imaginable, commoners, soldiers, barbarians, scholars you name it. This book would contain nothing but stats. This way, the nations book has more room for nation fluff, more room for regional or specific maps, better descriptions of communities, maybe an adventure hook or two for each town, city or ruin listed in the book. A more fleshed out campaign idea like in AtTR.

Like I said, I love the stats, but I'd rather see them in a separate book.

SS

 

[Raven Blackwell]

I disagree. [How unlike me, eh? 8)] I want 'flavour' NPCs with some personality. If I want anything greater than a generic opponent, I need to make it up on the fly. A 'Rogue's Gallery' book would be wonderful me- no other info, just a hundred or so NPC of various types, power level and disposition. If I need a friendly Khitani sorcerer, I wouldn't have to try and pull up memorized text from the sourcebooks, I could just flip to page 73 ..8)

Raven, who's donate a few NPCs to that collection