Anyone seen the new Sector Fleet book?
- Thread starter phavoc
- Start date
That sort of thing is a useful reference for people wanting to dig detail into their campaigns.
When I produced some logistics textbooks (the Science of War is another good one) that talked about how many tonnes of water, fuel, food, spares and ammunition 1,000 troops in the field use per day whilst doing setup for a Mercenary campaign, the PC's response was a string of swearwords. Especially in a sci-fi setting, because in some circumstances you'll have to shift all of it with you across interstellar distances....
The one thing that would be interesting to see is something akin to an admiralty campaign setting - one step up from individual ship commands. Could probably do with a large-scale fleet engagement rule set (something akin to Mercenary's rules) to support it. Something that can support a multiple-dreadnought-squadron-plus-close-escorts fight.
I'm thinking it was Martin, too, but didn't have time to confirm it, so I figured I'd let someone else's memory kick in. Since he's the one who did Sector Fleet, I'm wondering if that's the specific product that ticked him off with regards to canon?AKAmra said:
I like Martin's work myself as well. Hopefully he'll continue to do generic Traveller stuff.
The Dark Avenger
Mongoose
Consider this a drive-by answer. I've not been here in a while; just chanced by wondering what was going on and discovered that Sector Fleet and Crowded Hours are finally out.
I've not seen the final product, and I won't be answering questions about these or any other Traveller products... mainly because I probably won't seem them before my next visit which will be... whenever.
I've not seen the final product, and I won't be answering questions about these or any other Traveller products... mainly because I probably won't seem them before my next visit which will be... whenever.
The Dark Avenger
Mongoose
But anyway... there was no specific product that offended me, it was more that the process of approvals at the Marc Miller end is totally broken and stayed broken (though often in new ways) despite promises to the contrary.
Each new product (and sometimes an incident in between) saw me battling through the same obstacles, delaying the project or forcing me to do additional work (which effectively costs me money).
In the end, and far too late, I decided I'd had enough.
Each new product (and sometimes an incident in between) saw me battling through the same obstacles, delaying the project or forcing me to do additional work (which effectively costs me money).
In the end, and far too late, I decided I'd had enough.
The Dark Avenger
Mongoose
Citing just a few examples...
The whole Avenger Enterprises saga was dogged by the same problem - I would ask questions to which I as a licensee was entitled to answers, and they'd go unanswered. Or require repeated proddings. Or I'd have to go through Marc's 'inner circle' who have their own agendas and will happily derail a project that is otherwise going OK because it doesn't fit their vision of what The Olde Game should look like.
Spinward Marches was derailed by mailicious interference by Hunter Gordon, acting upon unsubstantiated hearsay (which I had already stated in his own forum was groundless). Without bothering to investgate or speak to me at all, Marc Miller appointed Hunter Gordon as 'line editor' to oversee my work and vet it before submsision to Marc Miller (This was illegal since Gordon was a direct competitor; it was also insulting to me as well as being downright stupid).
The 'line editor' thing was hurriedlly withdrawn but the incident shows a shocking level of mistrust by Marc Miller towards me. And then a few months later, Marc published a set of Spinward Marches UWPS containing canon 'fixes' similar to the ones I was censured for considering. So presumably what I was considering doing wasn't so bad (and it was still at the 'let's compile a list of things to ask Marc about' stage), in which case why was I treated so badly over it?
Other approvals-stage problems occurred, until finally I put in the Living Traveller campaign outline, which included concepts that Marc had agreed I could do. The document came back from the approvals stage, ostensibly from Marc, with the same concepts vetoed in an extemely sarcastic and rude manner.
Turns out, this document did not originate with Marc at all, it was written by one of his inner circle and simply passed to me without regard to the fact that the comments were extremely insulting. Marc hadn't bothered to tell the person who was issuing these vetoes on his behalf what we'd agreed I could do, which is bad enough, but he then failed to notice that:
1. The document that came back to me had been dealt with in a manner totally unsuitable to professional interaction, and was downright rude
2. It contradicted what he had aleady agreed I could do.
I had acted upon what I was told was doable, and was now required to rewrite the campaign outline, which meant more work-time (= money) wasted on the project.
The person writing the comments responded to my protest by telling me that that's just how he writes. My reply, something along the lines of 'not to me you don't' was the beginning of the end for my involvement.
The whole Avenger Enterprises saga was dogged by the same problem - I would ask questions to which I as a licensee was entitled to answers, and they'd go unanswered. Or require repeated proddings. Or I'd have to go through Marc's 'inner circle' who have their own agendas and will happily derail a project that is otherwise going OK because it doesn't fit their vision of what The Olde Game should look like.
Spinward Marches was derailed by mailicious interference by Hunter Gordon, acting upon unsubstantiated hearsay (which I had already stated in his own forum was groundless). Without bothering to investgate or speak to me at all, Marc Miller appointed Hunter Gordon as 'line editor' to oversee my work and vet it before submsision to Marc Miller (This was illegal since Gordon was a direct competitor; it was also insulting to me as well as being downright stupid).
The 'line editor' thing was hurriedlly withdrawn but the incident shows a shocking level of mistrust by Marc Miller towards me. And then a few months later, Marc published a set of Spinward Marches UWPS containing canon 'fixes' similar to the ones I was censured for considering. So presumably what I was considering doing wasn't so bad (and it was still at the 'let's compile a list of things to ask Marc about' stage), in which case why was I treated so badly over it?
Other approvals-stage problems occurred, until finally I put in the Living Traveller campaign outline, which included concepts that Marc had agreed I could do. The document came back from the approvals stage, ostensibly from Marc, with the same concepts vetoed in an extemely sarcastic and rude manner.
Turns out, this document did not originate with Marc at all, it was written by one of his inner circle and simply passed to me without regard to the fact that the comments were extremely insulting. Marc hadn't bothered to tell the person who was issuing these vetoes on his behalf what we'd agreed I could do, which is bad enough, but he then failed to notice that:
1. The document that came back to me had been dealt with in a manner totally unsuitable to professional interaction, and was downright rude
2. It contradicted what he had aleady agreed I could do.
I had acted upon what I was told was doable, and was now required to rewrite the campaign outline, which meant more work-time (= money) wasted on the project.
The person writing the comments responded to my protest by telling me that that's just how he writes. My reply, something along the lines of 'not to me you don't' was the beginning of the end for my involvement.
The Dark Avenger
Mongoose
Attempts were made to fix this, such as my request that the inner circle of fanboys be taken out of the loop. Presumably that was done, because things did change. Rather than my queries being bounced out to a fanboy to be dealt with, they were just forgotten about instead.
By this point I'd just plain had enough.
I write for a living, and I need a professional setup like my mainstream publishers give me (which isnt much, just politeness and clear, timely communication). Game work pays very little, and to be forced to do extra work or to have a project delayed because the approvals stage is broken really isn't acceptable. Nor is being insulted by people who really should not be in the loop at all.
Despite promises to deal with the problems, it became apparent to me that the situation was not going to improve. Marc Miller has a way of operating that he's not inclined to change, and I'm not willing to work under those terms. Not any more.
I should have got out long ago, but I kept trying to make it work somehow. Right now I really can't explain why.
By this point I'd just plain had enough.
I write for a living, and I need a professional setup like my mainstream publishers give me (which isnt much, just politeness and clear, timely communication). Game work pays very little, and to be forced to do extra work or to have a project delayed because the approvals stage is broken really isn't acceptable. Nor is being insulted by people who really should not be in the loop at all.
Despite promises to deal with the problems, it became apparent to me that the situation was not going to improve. Marc Miller has a way of operating that he's not inclined to change, and I'm not willing to work under those terms. Not any more.
I should have got out long ago, but I kept trying to make it work somehow. Right now I really can't explain why.
The Dark Avenger
Mongoose
Would I do more Traveller? Perhaps, under the right circumstances.
I'm doing some game stuff (including some SF which uses the Traveller rules set) for various clients; so long as the process is kept clean and simple, without cross-cutting agendas and screaming-fanboy interference, then it's entirely doable in between better-paying jobs.
But... any further Traveller work has to be on my terms, which aren't complicated. I need to be sure that if I write a book to the original agreed concept, then it will be approved and go out to publication in a timely manner. And I'll get paid for it on time. And I expect to be dealt with in a courteous manner rather than being messed around and insulted by fanboys who don't actually write for the setting, just lean on Marc to make sure other people's work has to fit their vision.
Firms that pay me about 20 times as much as Traveller did can manage this setup, so I'm not seeing major difficulties here. Yet somehow I don't think the Traveller process will ever be fixed.
I know others have had a similar problem, which is going to make finding (and more significantly, retaining) good writers who know the setting well a problem.
But it's not my problem.
Not any more.
I'm doing some game stuff (including some SF which uses the Traveller rules set) for various clients; so long as the process is kept clean and simple, without cross-cutting agendas and screaming-fanboy interference, then it's entirely doable in between better-paying jobs.
But... any further Traveller work has to be on my terms, which aren't complicated. I need to be sure that if I write a book to the original agreed concept, then it will be approved and go out to publication in a timely manner. And I'll get paid for it on time. And I expect to be dealt with in a courteous manner rather than being messed around and insulted by fanboys who don't actually write for the setting, just lean on Marc to make sure other people's work has to fit their vision.
Firms that pay me about 20 times as much as Traveller did can manage this setup, so I'm not seeing major difficulties here. Yet somehow I don't think the Traveller process will ever be fixed.
I know others have had a similar problem, which is going to make finding (and more significantly, retaining) good writers who know the setting well a problem.
But it's not my problem.
Not any more.
The Dark Avenger
Mongoose
My latest mainstream book just came out - Modern Air Launched Weapons. It contains about as many words as a Traveller book, was about as challenging to write, and I got paid a LOT more to do it.
And I didn't get messed about. At all.
Looking at it like that, there simply isn't much incentive to write Traveller really. I'd do other game stuff for Mongoose, maybe other Traveller if was non-OTU and didn't need Marc's approval.
And I didn't get messed about. At all.
Looking at it like that, there simply isn't much incentive to write Traveller really. I'd do other game stuff for Mongoose, maybe other Traveller if was non-OTU and didn't need Marc's approval.
dmccoy1693
Cosmic Mongoose
I don't typically post in 3I threads unless they pertain to Foreven, but this time I do not feel I can be silent. Dark Avenger is right. Poor approvals process, lack/poor communication and similar are things that keep good writers from developing a setting. when I started writing for Traveller the reputation of the fans fighting with each other didn't scare me away. I accepted that as the culture and jumped in. The issues with the approvals process has kept me from writing 3I material outside Foreven. I've considered submitting articles to S&P with the hope of eventually freelancing for Mongoose as a goal, but the whole approvals process issue stories has changed my mind every time. Because of the setup, I'll write for Foreven, but that's.
lastbesthope
Mongoose
The Dark Avenger said:
Would so love to see A:2089 Traveller
LBH
Thanks for telling your side of the story, Martin. I see things haven't changed with Marc. I have heard similar stories before, including with the D20 line.
Its a shame, because personally I would like to see the level of support I became accustomed to for Traveller in the Classic and MegaTraveller days. With such a pathetic approval process, I don't see that happening.
Still, Mongoose is doing well enough for me, along with a couple of things Mr. McCoy has done.
I was interested in one or two other licensee's, but their, umm, customer relations skills turned me off to them quickly.
Its a shame, because personally I would like to see the level of support I became accustomed to for Traveller in the Classic and MegaTraveller days. With such a pathetic approval process, I don't see that happening.
Still, Mongoose is doing well enough for me, along with a couple of things Mr. McCoy has done.
I was interested in one or two other licensee's, but their, umm, customer relations skills turned me off to them quickly.
dmccoy1693
Cosmic Mongoose
DFW said:
No. The only thing I have published under the Foreven license to date is the d66 material. I've been working on a larger Foreven book for over a year now. Its been going rather slow and I want to take the time to do it right.
Mithras
Banded Mongoose
I'm surprised you've stuck it out so long! Just bought Grand Fleet BTW, nice book 
I write history books, specialising in cults, secret societies etc, and alrthough I write alot of RPG material, I put it out for free. I figured the hassles and minimal return is not worth it. I'd rather get a bunch of great emails patting me on the back, and just enjoy it all.
The only RPG company I ever worked with was SJGs and they were stellar, very very professional.
But otherwise... go where the money is!
I write history books, specialising in cults, secret societies etc, and alrthough I write alot of RPG material, I put it out for free. I figured the hassles and minimal return is not worth it. I'd rather get a bunch of great emails patting me on the back, and just enjoy it all.
The only RPG company I ever worked with was SJGs and they were stellar, very very professional.
But otherwise... go where the money is!
The Dark Avenger said:
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