Any recomendations for Ransom values?

[PdO]

It looks like my PC's are going to capture some tomb-robbers, and I this seems like a good time to introduce the concept of ransom, since the PC's may need to resort to it themselves at some point.

My problem is that I really don't know what constitutes a reasonable ransom, and what factors come into play. The bandits are fairly wealthy but come from quite far away (Sun Country). They do will have a small amount of operating capitol in a village nearby (In Sartar).

Does anyone have any guidelines as to how much ransom is reasonable?

 

[Raegenhere (Huscarl)]

Hi PdO

I came across this (at bizarrely the following link http://www.thegmatbootcamp.com/tag/reading-comprehension-practice/):

Middle Age Humanitarianism

In Roman times, defeated enemies were generally put to death as criminals for having offended the emperor of Rome. In the Middle Ages, however, the practice of ransoming, or returning prisoners in exchange for money, became common. Though some saw this custom as a step towards a more humane society, the primary reasons behind it were economic rather than humanitarian.

In those times, rulers had only a limited ability to raise taxes. They could neither force their subjects to fight nor pay them to do so. The promise of material compensation in the form of goods and ransom was therefore the only way of inducing combatants to participate in a war. In the Middle Ages, the predominant incentive for the individual soldier to participate in a war was the expectation of spoils. Although collecting ransom clearly brought financial gain, keeping a prisoner and arranging for his exchange had its costs. Consequently, several procedures were devised to reduce transaction costs.

One such device was a rule asserting that the prisoner had to assess his own value. This compelled the prisoner to establish a value without much distortion; indicating too low a value would increase the captive’s chances of being killed, while indicating too high a value would either ruin him financially or create a prohibitively expensive ransom that would also result in death.

A second means of reducing costs was the practice of releasing a prisoner on his word of honor. This procedure was advantageous to both parties since the captor was relieved of the expense of keeping the prisoner while the captive had freedom of movement. The captor also benefited financially by having his captive raise the ransom himself. This “parole” was a viable practice since the released prisoner risked recapture or retaliation against his family. Moreover, in medieval society, breaking one’s word had serious consequences. When, for example, King Francois I broke his word to the Emperor Charles V in 1525, his reputation suffered immensely.

A third method of reducing costs was the use of specialized institutions to establish contact between the two parties. Two types of institutions emerged: professional dealers who acted as brokers, and members of religious orders who acted as neutral intermediaries. Dealers advanced money for the ransom and charged interest on the loan. Two of the religious orders that became intermediaries were the Mercedarians and the Trinitarians, who between them arranged the ransom of nearly one million prisoners.

Point 1: About the captive setting their own ransom and 'keeping it real' to ensure they are kept alive and ransomed rather than slain.

Another interesting article:

http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/strickland1.htm

And another, http://www.airpower.au.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1970/mar-apr/krone.html

There's a table in it with motivations and actions that looks of interest.

Here's another link with some values:

http://www.hyw.com/books/history/Some_Agi.htm

Other French troops captured at Agincourt were ransommed for much less, and the list below shows the ransoms that were paid for various prisoners.


Captive Ducats Captor
M. de Corpe 220,000 two men-at-arms and an archer
Man-at-arms 8,000 Sir Robert Laurence
Man-at-arms 8,000 Sir Robert Laurence
Man-at-arms 16,000 Unknown
Man-at-arms 3,000 a man-at-arms
Man-at-arms 650 an archer
Unknown 360 an archer

You could make an assumption of 1 ducat = 1 SP. If you look at bowman in Arms & Equipment II page 124 the daily cost is 8CP nearly 1 SP, so 1 year would be about 365SP, very similar in total (ignoring actual values) to the Agincourt payments. The table is not exactly a proper match, but you might be able to adapt.

It was also interesting to note, that fuedal tenants were obligated to ransom their Master.

 

[Rungard]

"Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes" includes some info about ransom values for the different Orlanthi statuses:

Clan chieftains or priests are worth 100 cattle
Tribal king: 200 cattle
High King: 2000 cattle

Thanes: 50 cattle
Freemen or carls: 25 cattle
Cottars: 10 cattle

:wink:

 

[Raegenhere (Huscarl)]

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/medievalprices.html

Cow (good) 10s 12 cen(?) [7] 30
Cow 9s 5d mid 14th [1] 99
Cow 6s 1285-1290 [3] 206

If you assume 1 shilling = 1 SP for ease of use, that would mean that each cow is between 6 to 10 SP depending on it's quality.

The table would then become:

High King: 2000 cattle - 12,000 - 20,000 SP
Tribal king: 200 cattle - 1,200 - 2,000 SP
Clan chieftains or priests are worth 100 cattle - 600 - 1,000 SP
Thanes: 50 cattle - 300 - 500 SP
Freemen or carls: 25 cattle - 150 - 250 SP
Cottars: 10 cattle - 60 - 100 SP

In A&EII a famer is 1CP a day, so earns approximately 40 SP per annum.

In the very first RuneQuest (I don't have a copy anymore), I seem to recall Rurik early in the book in a narrative combat description crying out "my ransom is" and being captured. Of course, I could be 'recreating' history with that recall!

 

[Raegenhere (Huscarl)]

He was I think at Rune Lord level, so that would give an indication of the ransom for a Yelmalio Rune Lord (assuming everything is still correct and adds up over the decades of additional RQ material production)?

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

No, Rurik had only 13 POW and was only an initiate. His ransom was 3,000 Guilders.

Ransom was in RQ3 the same as weregeld... there is a table based on yearly income, giving the result in pennies and in cattle.

In cash it averaged out to roughly 7 x yearly income.

 

[Raegenhere (Huscarl)]

No, Rurik had only 13 POW and was only an initiate. His ransom was 3,000 Guilders.

Ransom was in RQ3 the same as weregeld... there is a table based on yearly income, giving the result in pennies and in cattle.

In cash it averaged out to roughly 7 x yearly income.

Ah, damn memory!

That 7 x yearly annual income, would put a Farmer at about 7 x 40 = 280 or so SP, so about double 1 Shilling = 1 SP.

That would put a High King between 24,000 to 40,000 SP and roughly equate to a cow (which I can't find) being value between 12 and 20 SP. Does that sound / look correct if anyone has a supplement that lists the cost of cow / cattle?

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

The amounts are listed in RQ3 as:

annual income cash cattle
360 2,520 10
1,440 10,000 40
6,000 40,000 160
24,000 160,000 640
90,000 640,000 2,560
365,000 2,560,000 none
1,440,000 10,240,000 none

sorry about the formatting!

 

[Raegenhere (Huscarl)]

The amounts are listed in RQ3 as:

annual income cash cattle
360 2,520 10
1,440 10,000 40
6,000 40,000 160
24,000 160,000 640
90,000 640,000 2,560
365,000 2,560,000 none
1,440,000 10,240,000 none

sorry about the formatting!

OK, based on that, a cow is worth about 36SP. They're probably top-end cows?

And as you say, in monetary terms annual income x 7.

 

[Raegenhere (Huscarl)]

LHM

Do you have an indication for the levels in the table lower to higher - Farmer to King and how that might match up with Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes?

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

In Fronrit it's done with tokens, or family members.

Sadly I find Sartar dull, so haven't really a clue.

 

[simonh]

I'm not sure we can extrapolate ransoms in common adventuring situations with ransoms from formal warfare in the historical record. In the historical examples there can have been no question that the captives were fairly captured in legitimate and honourable warfare. I'm not sure that bushwhacking someone in the backwoods and then extorting cash out of their loved ones would be viewed the same way by, for example, neutral third parties.

I like the idea of ransoms and they have a strong tradition in RQ, but I've never been quite sure what the best way to handle them is.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Raegenhere (Huscarl)]

I came across these in Danse Macabre on page 16

http://mythogames.150m.com/folder_01/danse_intro.htm

Shillings Shillings
Yearly Income Weekly Income
King / Queen 80,000-120,000 2,000
Regent 10,000-12,000 200
Bishop 10,000-12,000 200
Earl 4,000 40
Wealthy Knight 2,000 40
Parish Friar 412 8
Thane 412 8
Middling Knight 412 6
Wealthy Merchant 130 2.5
Impoverished Knight 104 2
Seneschal 104 1
Man-At-Arms 52 0.8
Archer 42 0.75
Middling Merchant 34 0.6
Mariner 30 0.4
Tradesman 20 0.15
Free Farmer 8.5 0.08
Tinker 4.3 0.02
Serf 1 0
Slave 0 0

This might be of some help for stratification. Just to note, in the system, a cow is worth 5 Shillings, therefore, if someone captured the King and as per RQIII asked for a ransom of 7 years annual income, under this it would be 7 x 2,000 = 14,000 shillings which would equate to 2,800 cattle.

As suggested, perhaps you add use modifiers for reputation, renown, etc.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

I believe kings fell into one of the "None" categories in RQIII — cows wouldn't cut it, just cold hard cash.

 

[Loz]

I believe kings fell into one of the "None" categories in RQIII — cows wouldn't cut it, just cold hard cash.

Don't forget non-tangibles...

Political power (We want a Death Speaker of Zod to sit on your council. Or we cut the king's head off).

Land/territory rights (Cede all lands north of the river to us or we cut the king's head off)

Religious privileges (let us worship Zod or we cut the king's head off)

Magic (give us the knowledge of the Zod grimoire or we cut the king's head off)

Exhange (Release Zod the Lesser or we cut the king's head off).

Poor king. He must be feeling quite unloved.

 

[Briquelet]

I more or less wing these values...they really come down to whatever the market will bear. If weregild is too high, the other guys will not be able to pay and you'll likely have a blood feud on your hands. If weregild is set too low, you could have anything from an insulted family to a spiraling devaluation of human life that could result in a rash of murders.

In my last game, two NPCs began screaming "Ransom!" when their fellow bandits were killed. The PCs asked how much and the bandits said 100sp each. After threatening them with weapons, the offer eventually went up to 200sp each--everything the bandits had stashed away in their hideout.

That's only a little more than a cow a piece, but it was a lot more than the PCs would have received for simply killing the two men.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Don't forget non-tangibles...

Political power (We want a Death Speaker of Zod to sit on your council. Or we cut the king's head off).

Land/territory rights (Cede all lands north of the river to us or we cut the king's head off)

Religious privileges (let us worship Zod or we cut the king's head off)

Magic (give us the knowledge of the Zod grimoire or we cut the king's head off)

Exhange (Release Zod the Lesser or we cut the king's head off).

Poor king. He must be feeling quite unloved.

One important thing to remember about cattle is that more than a few hundred in one spot, and they actually start to be a problem in of themselves.

As Loz says it's likely to be non-bovine assets... cash (the other option presented by the table) is portable, but not actually that common, outside highly civilised areas, in the larger amounts that are indicated.

It depends on what is culturally important/relevant to those involved, as to what is asked for.

Capturing politicians or nobles in fractured regions also might not be so rewarding... to mis-quote the Duke of Wellington: "execute and be damned!".

 

[Raegenhere (Huscarl)]

Don't forget non-tangibles...

Political power (We want a Death Speaker of Zod to sit on your council. Or we cut the king's head off).

Land/territory rights (Cede all lands north of the river to us or we cut the king's head off)

Religious privileges (let us worship Zod or we cut the king's head off)

Magic (give us the knowledge of the Zod grimoire or we cut the king's head off)

Exhange (Release Zod the Lesser or we cut the king's head off).

Poor king. He must be feeling quite unloved.

One important thing to remember about cattle is that more than a few hundred in one spot, and they actually start to be a problem in of themselves.

As Loz says it's likely to be non-bovine assets... cash (the other option presented by the table) is portable, but not actually that common, outside highly civilised areas, in the larger amounts that are indicated.

It depends on what is culturally important/relevant to those involved, as to what is asked for.

Capturing politicians or nobles in fractured regions also might not be so rewarding... to mis-quote the Duke of Wellington: "execute and be damned!".

Another point was the cost of keeping the captive. That's where the promises and oath of fulfilment were made and the captive freed to return to their own lands and people and raise the ransom for payment, and / or perhaps deliver it themselves (probably unlikely the higher in status they are) or through an intermediary or agent.

 

[soltakss]

Cattle are only good for certain campaign settings.

Personally, I'd put ransoms in currency and have them converted if necessary.

A ransom in Roman Britain would be different to one in Medieval Europe and different again to one in the Young Kingdoms. If you have income tables for professions, then I'd give ransoms as a percentage of, or multiple of, annual income of a particular profession.

Keeping hostages for long periods of time is an issue - some European noblemen were held for ransom for several/many years, so that would have cost a fair bit, but the ransom gained outweighed the costs incurred.

Also, don't forget that some noblemen want to get ransomed ASAP as bad things can happen to hostages. Again, in Medieval Europe, hostages were routinely blinded and castrated for many reasons, including not paying ransoms, being part of a faction that opposed the ransomer or in revenge for other killings. Life as a hostage is not always a happy one.

 

[Raegenhere (Huscarl)]

Cattle are only good for certain campaign settings.

Personally, I'd put ransoms in currency and have them converted if necessary.

A ransom in Roman Britain would be different to one in Medieval Europe and different again to one in the Young Kingdoms. If you have income tables for professions, then I'd give ransoms as a percentage of, or multiple of, annual income of a particular profession.

Keeping hostages for long periods of time is an issue - some European noblemen were held for ransom for several/many years, so that would have cost a fair bit, but the ransom gained outweighed the costs incurred.

Also, don't forget that some noblemen want to get ransomed ASAP as bad things can happen to hostages. Again, in Medieval Europe, hostages were routinely blinded and castrated for many reasons, including not paying ransoms, being part of a faction that opposed the ransomer or in revenge for other killings. Life as a hostage is not always a happy one.

I also guess depending on your status the longer you're away that bastard half brother of your's could be angling for your estates / etc and even the other nobles now view your family as weak. Get the ransom paid as you said ASAP and get back as quickly as possible.