Anti-glorantha rant to moongose.
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HalfOrc HalfBiscuit
Mongoose
I agree with those saying too much of the art in the MRQ books is rather poor.
I'm not convinced Mongoose need to go to full colour interior art - black and white art can be just as inspiring - there was some cracking b&w stuff for Warhammer and 40K in old issues of White Dwarf (not sure what it's like these days). And there was great atmospheric stuff in Skyrealms of Jorune.
I also think the art needs to be more consistently themed - even after going through the Glorantha core book, I don't have a clear picture of what Glorantha (or any of its parts) really look like. Some of the illustrations make it look "ancient" some "medieval" and one or two look positively "modern" in real world terms.
And even in Deus Vult, which is set in a specified period of real world history, some of the illustrations are quite out of place - guy on the right on p100, I'm looking at you!
I'm not convinced Mongoose need to go to full colour interior art - black and white art can be just as inspiring - there was some cracking b&w stuff for Warhammer and 40K in old issues of White Dwarf (not sure what it's like these days). And there was great atmospheric stuff in Skyrealms of Jorune.
I also think the art needs to be more consistently themed - even after going through the Glorantha core book, I don't have a clear picture of what Glorantha (or any of its parts) really look like. Some of the illustrations make it look "ancient" some "medieval" and one or two look positively "modern" in real world terms.
And even in Deus Vult, which is set in a specified period of real world history, some of the illustrations are quite out of place - guy on the right on p100, I'm looking at you!
Vile
Banded Mongoose
I haven't had a chance to look inside the MRQ2 book yet (but I might have to make the investment soon going by what I've read on the BRP forums). However, I strongly agree with the principle of consistent art style within rulebooks. For example, Luise Perrene's art for RQ2 wasn't to everyone's taste, but it did provide a clear and consistent vision of Glorantha for players and GMs. The hardcover Games Workshop RQ3 books, by contrast, had various pieces of random art which, while some was individually of very high quality, did nothing to give me an impression that this was a coherent game world.
As for arty page borders - no, just ... no. I have no idea who thought of those or why they thought they would add anything to a rulebook, but to me they are just distracting and visually messy, and they eat up toner unnecessarily.
As for arty page borders - no, just ... no. I have no idea who thought of those or why they thought they would add anything to a rulebook, but to me they are just distracting and visually messy, and they eat up toner unnecessarily.
You mean like the hippie killing some warrior with a spirit in the core rulebook? Damn, I hate that picture.HalfOrc HalfBiscuit said:
Well, I never print books anyway so I don't care about the toner part. Same goes for the greyscale comment longer up.Vile said:
But I guess we disagree here, in most books I've seen it done I think it looks great and adds depth to the whole books art. It can be done in greyscale though.
But regardless, the core rulebook is in print in a black&white edition, so it's not like they are going to remove that one. What some of us are proposing is a "Beginners Core Rulebook" (or "Fancy cathc'em'all" rulebook). Which has same content as the core rulebook, maybe with a bit less focus on Glorantha (still undecided), some starting tips (A larger "Dungeon Mastering RuneQuest" section *wink wink*), a starting adventure and other stuff like that to get people into the game.
This core rulebook should then be printed with great artwork (possibly in colour- it catches the eyes), a colourful and fancy cover and so on.
The only expense would be reprinting, a bit of editing and a minimum of new content writing, and artwork (which, as it has been mentioned, can properly be done quite cheap from art students looking for portfolio experience - just make sure they're consistent in style).
The whole focus of this book is to stand at shelves in gaming stores, where young, innocent and d&d playing people come and catch their attention. Hopefully they will give the book a look, be impressed by the look, search the net for comments and buy it
=> more players to RQ.A great supplement would be if Mongoose made a free booklet (in black and white) available in gaming stores. This booklet has some pre-generated stereotypical characters, a couple of style-setting RP encounters, combats and maybe a trap/riddle or two. The whole booklet is written very basically as an introduction to the very different gaming system - to allow people without the core rulebook to play it and experience the strengths of the system.
If done properly these two combinations could get new players to the hobby. Later Arms & Equipment and Monster Coliseum can be done in a likewise fancy-manner (as other 'core' books). I think it is acceptable that more minor books are kept as black&white.
I hope someone from Mongoose is reading this, else I'll have to repost in the "What should we do next"-section.
- Dan
Technically, they do subscribe to a universal truth: its just that there's more than one.
Nonsense. They are the pioneers of true knowledge, cutting behind the mystique and cant and working out how the world really works. See above!
Tolkein does. So does Tekumel and a few others.
I have a soft spot for Faerun. It is patchy: so many authors have had a crack at it and some of them were less than subtle: but there is a surprising amount of depth there if you are prepared to ruthlessly prune the dross.
Far be it from me, enslaved as I am by my puritanical worldview (why else would I disagree with anything you say afterall?), so seek to rise to the elevated heights of social commentary represented by the Gloranthan Duck, but let me repreat my objection to them, which is that regardless of what the flavour text may say when they actually show up in scenarios it is almost invariably as comic relief. Playing, in fact, to the very stereotypes they should fight.
RPGs generally are dipping.
On this, we can agree!
Well, different parts of Glorantha are different: the West is Medieval, the center is ancianet, the east is, well eastern and Pamaltela and other areas are stone age. And thats a serious simplification: they mingle like fury.
Not that that is unrealistic. Europe looked very different at any given time depending on whether you were in Venice, Paris, the Baltic states or Russia, for example.
cthulhudarren
Mongoose
ledpup said:
Seems like a lot of the folks here on this forum are in Europe. Us Americans seem to be the folks not embracing RQ as much. Back in the early '80s, as soon as my group found RQ we dumped D&D. We loved the realistic combat. But we did not like the magic system. Now the magic in RQ works great.
Ledpup, you should blog more often! I'm going to keep an eye on your blog. Are there any other RQ related blogs I should be watching?
cthulhudarren
Mongoose
kintire said:
There REALLY needs to be a "Glorantha for Dummies" or somesuch. I have no clue, and I even played RQ back in the days of Chaosium.
HalfOrc HalfBiscuit
Mongoose
kintire said:
Up to a point - but remind me, when did hoplites (p88) co-exist with fully armoured knights (p 194)?
PrinceYyrkoon
Mongoose
There seems to be an idea that suggestions have to be 'either/or'. That's not the case at all.
Because a console game is mentioned, it doesn't mean that you have to go for 'console kewl'. It's good to keep an eye on all forms of escapist entertainment, surely, in relation to rpgs. How many pop culture references have rpgs 'appropriated' from films, comics, consoles and TV shows anyway? Quite a few.
No one is saying that everything has to be colour, either. White Wolf manage some high quality art in B&W. It's partly because of a coherent 'look', an intended design. I agree that Games Workshop's version of Runequest 3 was colourful, and I also agree that it wasn't, in any way, 'designed', it had a haphazard appearance, because it was just disparate pieces of art. Look at Luise Perrene's art for original RQ. I'd be willing to bet that was a major factor in RQ's success, because it was just so different. It was like a statement of intent.
I like the idea of a journal, reminds me of a kind of Castle Falkenstein approach, which is better than nothing. However, Mr. Deleriad, with the greatest respect, I think it's misleading to say that Harry Potter consists entirely of B&W words on a page. The Harry Potter IP is huge because of all the other stuff; films, magazines, toys, lunch boxes, console games and god knows what. The list goes on and on, and it's all carefully monitored for quality and consistency.
Some may worry that RQ would be 'dumbed down'. But why can't there be more than one option? Glorantha could be the 'expert' or 'advanced' setting. There could be entry level settings too. And what's the big sniffiness about 'generic', (i.e., pseudo-Eurocentric), settings anyway? Tolkien created a masterpiece exclusively referencing European culture and myth. Greyhawk is one of THEE greatest gaming worlds ever created. Look at Midnight or Dawnforge or the Hyborian Age, too. A lot can be done by talented writers. When I think of great game worlds, I think of things like Judges Guild Wilderlands. It wasn't a masterpiece, but as a swords & sorcery sandbox, it had no equal.
However, I think it takes more than one or two historical supplements. It makes me worry for Mongoose when they mention redoing things like Samurai and Pirates, they're never going to set the best seller charts alight.
Maybe better to have a go at releasing some colourful RQ spell cards. Or producing a 'RQ Lite' as a free pdf, (with cool art, of course ). Just try something new. The grognards like me may not buy spell cards, but I'm not the future.
Like Einstein once said, 'Madness is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results'. He was pretty clever, that guy.
Because a console game is mentioned, it doesn't mean that you have to go for 'console kewl'. It's good to keep an eye on all forms of escapist entertainment, surely, in relation to rpgs. How many pop culture references have rpgs 'appropriated' from films, comics, consoles and TV shows anyway? Quite a few.
No one is saying that everything has to be colour, either. White Wolf manage some high quality art in B&W. It's partly because of a coherent 'look', an intended design. I agree that Games Workshop's version of Runequest 3 was colourful, and I also agree that it wasn't, in any way, 'designed', it had a haphazard appearance, because it was just disparate pieces of art. Look at Luise Perrene's art for original RQ. I'd be willing to bet that was a major factor in RQ's success, because it was just so different. It was like a statement of intent.
I like the idea of a journal, reminds me of a kind of Castle Falkenstein approach, which is better than nothing. However, Mr. Deleriad, with the greatest respect, I think it's misleading to say that Harry Potter consists entirely of B&W words on a page. The Harry Potter IP is huge because of all the other stuff; films, magazines, toys, lunch boxes, console games and god knows what. The list goes on and on, and it's all carefully monitored for quality and consistency.
Some may worry that RQ would be 'dumbed down'. But why can't there be more than one option? Glorantha could be the 'expert' or 'advanced' setting. There could be entry level settings too. And what's the big sniffiness about 'generic', (i.e., pseudo-Eurocentric), settings anyway? Tolkien created a masterpiece exclusively referencing European culture and myth. Greyhawk is one of THEE greatest gaming worlds ever created. Look at Midnight or Dawnforge or the Hyborian Age, too. A lot can be done by talented writers. When I think of great game worlds, I think of things like Judges Guild Wilderlands. It wasn't a masterpiece, but as a swords & sorcery sandbox, it had no equal.
However, I think it takes more than one or two historical supplements. It makes me worry for Mongoose when they mention redoing things like Samurai and Pirates, they're never going to set the best seller charts alight.
Maybe better to have a go at releasing some colourful RQ spell cards. Or producing a 'RQ Lite' as a free pdf, (with cool art, of course
). Just try something new. The grognards like me may not buy spell cards, but I'm not the future. Like Einstein once said, 'Madness is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results'. He was pretty clever, that guy.
cthulhudarren
Mongoose
What about things like Goblins, Orc and Broo? I know Broo worship Chaos, Orcs "dark gods" but do Goblins, Orcs and Broo have their own separate gods, cults and myths? In Glorantha it seems that to use a race you have to know their gods, culture, cults, etc as races seem to be archetypes.
And I love traditional fire breathing dragons, and though they are in the Monster Col, I don't think they fit into Glorantha as the EWF have the "dragon" angle cornered. I guess call them Wyrms or something else.
And I love traditional fire breathing dragons, and though they are in the Monster Col, I don't think they fit into Glorantha as the EWF have the "dragon" angle cornered. I guess call them Wyrms or something else.
kintire said:
You're correct, the cultures each have their own universal world-views. I meant to describe Glorantha, as a whole, as not having a universal truth.
God Learners: Oh, of course, they're pioneers of true knowledge. Knowledge that gets a lot of people killed through crop failures and the like. They're definitely very cool in how they are going about their conquest. Very different from how conquest often works in fantasy worlds.
Ducks: Which scenarios are you speaking of? I've only read text from the Races of Glorantha. So far that's pretty much all I know about the ducks. I haven't read anything that suggests they are comic relief. Maybe you've read older scenarios? Does Pavis Rises or MRQI have ducks as comic relief? Personally, I like my interpretation more. That's how my Glorantha is is going to be. Not that there is anything wrong with comic relief, I just don't see that a race needs to provide that.
cthulhudarren said:
I live in Australia. Definitely RQ is more Euro though. It's a shame because D&D over-shadows so much and it just isn't that good.
Thanks for the comments about my blog.
The only blogs I've found worthwhile for RQ/Glorantha stuff are:
http://runequestwilderlands.blogspot.com/search/label/RuneQuest
http://mythopoeia-lair.blogspot.com/search/label/RuneQuest
Unfortunately, neither have had posts of late.
RosenMcStern
Mongoose
cerebro said:
Being the one who has adapted the seventeen schools of magic in "The Wheel of Fate" to RuneQuest II (yep, seventeen - the author of the fiction wouldn't have allowed any change) and playtested them, I can tell you that the system works perfectly well with flashbang spell effects combined with cool combat moves. You definitley can make a combat like the Dragon Age trailer with RuneQuest II, although I think it would take plenty of Hero Points to make it last that long.
Glorantha always had a subtler kind of magic, and used to restrict the appearance of this kind of powerful superheroes to the cathartic periods of transition between Ages (Arkat vs. Gbaji, the Hero Wars etc.). But settings that are designed to allow your character to go hand to hand with major demons already exist for RQ.
Unfortunately, in order to have a taste of this, you need to be able to read Italian. Or wait until MGP publishes something similar.
cthulhudarren said:
No Orcs in Glorantha.
No goblins in the traditional sense.
The Broo's main goddess is one of the major chaos deities.
Races do have their own mythologies and gods. Others can worship them at some level, usually, but worshippers are almost always from the relevant races.
Your standard rampaging fantasy dragon in RuneQuest (at least the ones capable of being fought by a band a wondering heroes) do exist. They are the physical manifestations of the dreams of real dragons. (Real dragons are seriously powerful...
HalfOrc HalfBiscuit
Mongoose
kintire said:
Again - only up to a point. You are not likely to mistake a picture of Greek hoplites for one of a Scottich schiltrom - different helmets/armour/shield sizes etc.
But my original point was the lack of any apparent direction in the art in the Gloranthan book. It appears to be a fairly random collection of images based on anything from the last 2500 years or so of real world history. After reading the book I am none the wiser as to what Glorantha looks like.
