Announcing: The Open Playtest!

Citizen would be really good for many NPCs, since most NPCs aren't travellers, or if so are just passengers.

But, I suggest that a 'Citizen' career simply be a skill list, relying on point-buy only instead of a full chargen sequence, because if it's used for NPCs then there's no point in spending a lot of time on them.

Even if it had a chargen sequence, its danger levels would vary wildly based not on just career but on location. Promotion would be scattershot and/or rare, and continuation would be essentially guaranteed (once a citizen, always a citizen, employed or not).

Unless you're talking about bizarre anti-utopias. So maybe you'd need a dozen different career tracks for citizens; they're unslottable.

And in most cases, I bet citizen careers are BORING.
 
pasuuli said:
And in most cases, I bet citizen careers are BORING.

What would you call Shepard Book? My own take on him is that he was an Agent career for quite sometime but then went citizen. Preacher would probably fall under Entertainer: Performer, but it's not a great fit. Citizen ... maybe.
 
dmccoy1693 said:
pasuuli said:
And in most cases, I bet citizen careers are BORING.

What would you call Shepard Book? My own take on him is that he was an Agent career for quite sometime but then went citizen. Preacher would probably fall under Entertainer: Performer, but it's not a great fit. Citizen ... maybe.

First, it seems that many or most player characters are "civilians", having finished their actual careers. In that case, Book seems to fit in as a retired Agent.

So, what if I said that not all civilian careers are boring? Most of them do not involve that magic combination of Travel and Adventure. But maybe there are some that do. If they can't be slotted into the current mix, then that's a candidate for a career.

Farmer, Miner, Lawyer, and Firefighter don't seem to be candidates.

However, a space "coast guard" would, as would Belter. Would "Colonist"? They could have adventures, and they certainly travel out of their element. Yet, their career is probably spent in the colony: those colonists who spend their lives in orbital construction or interstellar supply runs are just as well modelled via the current list.


So, the thing is, I can't see what a "Civilian" career would do for regular chargen. At the same time, I totally agree that Civilian skills should have their own list, since it's a given that 99% of the population are civvies.
 
Tychus said:
I can understand the desire to play a "normal" character, but Citizen doesn't seem like a very compelling career. The names of Citizen career specialities are not so important - what skills would you put on the specialist tables? You can make a case for a bureaucrat (Admin, Advocate, Computer, Broker or Diplomat or Persuade, Drive or Fly), though that's not much different than the Merchant skill list.. What else? Rural - Animal and Survive are about it. Industrial/Tradesman - Mechanic, Trade(), and what? There just aren't a lot of skills to represent "citizen" type jobs.

I think all of those careers encompass a lot of skills, and I'd enjoy playing an 'average joe' character for one.

But it's not really an issue of whether each of us would personally find a career compelling or not - it's more an issue of wanting a 'complete' set of rules. I'd like to have the complete range of careers to choose from in the core rules - rather than having them spread over several books.

I recognise that each of the careers could be expanded out in supplements, but I'd find it irritating if the Citizens career was found in a later book or pdf file, seperate from all the other basic career choices. It just makes the rules seem incomplete.
 
Jame said:
I printed out the part for "Merchant" and went through it; my question is, how do I roll for reenlistment?

The reenlistment roll has been folded into the Advancement roll. You roll 2d for Advancement; if you roll a 2 you are unable to return to that career. If you roll a 12, you HAVE to return to that career.

Allen
 
pasuuli said:
So, what if I said that not all civilian careers are boring? Most of them do not involve that magic combination of Travel and Adventure. But maybe there are some that do. If they can't be slotted into the current mix, then that's a candidate for a career.

Well, I should have specified a bit more. My take on Book: Agent -> Citizen -> Wanderer (At start of Firefly) -> Politician (in Serenity)
 
dmccoy1693 said:
pasuuli said:
So, what if I said that not all civilian careers are boring? Most of them do not involve that magic combination of Travel and Adventure. But maybe there are some that do. If they can't be slotted into the current mix, then that's a candidate for a career.

Well, I should have specified a bit more. My take on Book: Agent -> Citizen -> Wanderer (At start of Firefly) -> Politician (in Serenity)

Having just watched Serenity the other night, I concur with your analysis.

Allen
 
dmccoy1693 said:
pasuuli said:
So, what if I said that not all civilian careers are boring? Most of them do not involve that magic combination of Travel and Adventure. But maybe there are some that do. If they can't be slotted into the current mix, then that's a candidate for a career.

Well, I should have specified a bit more. My take on Book: Agent -> Citizen -> Wanderer (At start of Firefly) -> Politician (in Serenity)

sounds right to me.
 
v1 playtest thoughts...

Overall, looks quite promising, makes a good go of caprutring classic traveller, some issues though:

TL9: (Pre-Stellar) The defining element of TL9 is the development of gravity manipulation, which makes space travel
vastly safer and faster. Gravity control is a necessary step to the invention of the Jump drive, which occurs near the end of
this Tech Level. TL9 cultures can colonise other worlds, although going to a colony is generally a one-way trip.
TL10: (Early Stellar) With the advent of jump, nearby systems are opened up. Orbital habitats and factories become
common. Interstellar travel and trade lead to an economic boon. Colonies become much more viable.

Um, TL9 is interstellar, i see no purpose or benefit to pushing it back, will be extremely hard to integrate with ALL other traveller stuff. kinda short changes the vilani's too for that matter. 2x TL with J1 is fine, no? TL10 description sounds like it should be TL9, to my mind.

Skill tables, survival, advancement, level-0 skills:
Love the homeworld skills, as level-0 not so useful though, needs to accomodate no trade class worlds maybe by TL/starport type tables. option to take a skill twice and get level-1 maybe?
Basic training as a buncha level-0 skills, much rather one level-1 maybe 2 level 0s, odd selection of service skills in the career fields, everyone in the navy is a pilot lol. marines can't serve as ships gunners. ever.
survival odd attribute selections to base it on. promotion from navy flight 4+ vs xboat 10+, seems broken with the -1/term, makes initial scores low to allow for non-overpromotion later?
advancement, very top heavy bias in the characters created, lotta soc 10+ admirals it appears. No balance/compensation for lack of advancement/promotion. I would think non-promoted would be more skilled, a trade of prestige for ability. maybe additional skill a term if non-officer?
Auto/rank skills, every navy/marine/army character all have tactics and leadership at rank 3, every scout JoT. Love the 3 subclasses, allows for a greater pool of types from each service. The actual selections in the skill tables seems too overlapping, i don't get a feel for 'bents' by service like i did in classic traveller. classic traveller often had one or two skills unique to a service, and others while not unique things they were 'good' at. The stats tied in with it, certain stats favoured certain classes. I don't get that with this system.
We have classes for high and low social status (noble, navy "admiral vs rogue, sorta-drifter) but none for the middle majority, very much in favor of those existing citizen tables.

Skill tiers/cascading:
classic traveller had cross-applicability of skills. liason-1 equalled admin, streetwise. Admin-1 served as legal (advocate). Carouse -1 as steward. i see none of that in this, other than referee-defined subskill, or level-0 in all subskills.
this system seems to keep the low overall skills, increases specialization of the skills, reduces their cross-applicability, and rounds it out with say 20 level-0 skills. So to run a starship engine i need 3 levels of engineering one each for jump drives power, or three people to do the same thing?! For electronics, as oppossed to mechanic i need Eng (elec), sensor, comm, and/or computer. Social skills there's no general one? no alien one? medical works equally against non-human? or at medical-2 hmm?
No electronics, but astrogation/navigation split. no artillery for the army (grr), but ortillery as gunner. No liason, lack of a high skill serving as more limited other skill (cascading). Aliens but no way to relate to them, no differences in medical, guess vargrs don't have their own language either.

Combat, need to get some numbers to be able to run it as posted. Seems to favor flicker-style micro management, I have high Dex hit first yer dead. End seems to auto-gimp a lot of characters, while high END seems too resistant. lacking specifics will wait for them before i try it.

I get this image of a buncha ex-military officers sipping tea in the lounge fighting over who gets to lead and tactics, meanwhile the ship blows up because the engineer can't maintain the drives, while the 4 scout pilots on the bridge try n make do with JoT.

Belittling the concerns expressed about too top-heavy character creation, while actively favoring high class and caste from the tables, while penalizing those who don't "make" it due to missing out on the free skills, dismissing a desire for more majority-type career options, all of this doesn't strike me as Traveller, if i get 4+ advancement as a navy flier and a free SOC 10+ for it, um, expect a ship full of admirals, simply put. every military level 3 all the same skills, there's no benefit to choosing one or the other, they are the same. With rebalancing of promoted/advanced and not (un-advanced non-promoted would be higher skill), better skill table and autoskill 'flavour', fixing the 20+ level-0 syndrome, looks promising.
 
TrippyHippy said:
Science - I'd make very sure of your definitions, with a dictionary in hand, with some of these. Other sciences to possibly list - Anthropology, Astrophysics, Geology, Theology...

I would also make research, or investigative Science tasks based upon Intelligence, rather than Education.

Further on to this, I think you should differentiate between science and humanities for the skills list. Technically speaking, disciplines like History and Philosophy are not sciences because they aren't based upon induction or measurement. Unless a discipline can be measured or experimented on, it's not a science. There can be some confusion over what social sciences are sometimes though. As a rule of thumb, disciplines based upon maths are sciences, and those based upon language are humanities (or Academics). I suggest two skills:

Academics: Anthropology*, Literature, Philosophy, Linguistics, History, Cartology, Theology.

Science - Archeology, Astrophysics, Biology, Chemistry, Geology, Mathematics, Physics, Psionicology, Psychology, Robotics, Sociobiology*, Xenology.

*Scrap Sophontology please! Anthropology is a tricky definition, because it has historical links to science, but doesn't really use scientific method. The scientific wing would be called Sociobiology, these days, but its a debateable issue. Psychology is also a bit problematic, but I'm assuming that it is also going to be mostly biological in it's background in the future. I am a science and maths teacher, btw. (That's right! I'm very important! :wink: )
Frankly, I'd make the career...Academic...and have Scholar handle the social sciences and Scientist handle the hard sciences. Student, I'd drop...student is a rank, not a career.

Physician, doesn't fit in here...IMO. I'd make it a career totally of its own. You could have specialties like General Practice, Surgery, Emergency Care and/or Research.
 
Allensh said:
My players are less than satisfied with the skill improvement rules. One guy said under those rules it would take him 20 years for his character to go from Computer 4 to Computer 5. He wants to see more actual improvement in his character. Now, I understand that with the skill system as is, you don't want characters leaping up at rapid rates since the difference between a 1 and a 5 is extreme...but there still seems to be an issue here. This is the only part of the game so far that they don't like. They love character creation (one guy dubbed it "the best character creation system I have ever used"), they love the combat system and the initiative rules, especially once they grasped the hasten action concept and how interrupting actions worked. They're just not keen on the extreme slowness in which characters improve.

Allen
Allen, keep in mind that in CT there was virtually no character improvement (of skills or characteristics anyway) once the character left character generation and entered play. IIRC, I think you could pick out 1 skill and after 4 years of play improve it by one level.

CT was (and is) based on a different philosophy from D&D-XP style games. In CT you generated the PC as a just about finished product...a "mature" PC...and you role played with the PC you generated. In D&D you generated a beginning PC and played the PC throughout his career, retiring him when he became "too mature/powerful"...or at least, that's how you originally did it, retiring the PC when he got to Level X (and IIRC it actually was 10).

Frankly, it probably *should* take that PC 20 years to go from 4 to 5. In fact, he might never be able to get to that next level...is an old ball player a better ball player?; is an old scientist *always* a more skilled scientist?, is an old Pilot going to continue to become a better Pilot as every year passes?
 
AKAramis said:
Also: the CG process listed on page 35 doesn't match the text, nor the table labels, but provides a smooth flow.


PT Draft 1 said:
Basic character generation uses the following steps:

1. Roll characteristics and determine characteristic modifiers.
2. Choose a homeworld.
3. a. Choose a career.
b. Roll to qualify for that career.
c. If you qualify for that career, go to Step 4.
d. If you do not qualify for that career, then you can go to the Draft or enter the Drifter career.
4. If this is your first time on this career, get your basic training.
5. Choose a specialisation for this career.
6. Choose one of the skills and training tables for this career and roll on it.
a. Roll for survival on this career.
b. If you succeed, go to Step 7.
c. If you did not succeed, then events have forced you from this career. Roll on the Mishap table, then go to Step 5
for your next four-year term, or Step 12 if you wish to finish your character. Optionally, establish a Connection
with another player character.
7. a. Roll for Events.
b. Optionally, establish a Connection with another player character.
8. a. Roll for Advancement, applying your Rank as negative DM
b. If you succeed, choose one of the skills and training tables for this career and roll on it. Increase your Rank and
take any bonus skills from the Ranks table for this career.
c. If you roll a 2 or less, you must leave this career.
9. If you are leaving the career, roll for Benefits.
10. If your character is 34 or older, roll for Aging.
11. Go to Step 3 to choose a new careeer, or to Step 12 if you wish to finish your character.
12. Finalise any Connections with other characters.
13. Choose a Campaign Skill Pack and allocate skills from that pack.
14. Purchase starting equipment and, if you can afford it, a spacecraft.

Note that this has several implications
1) you roll enlistment EVERY term
2) if injured during a term, you must end character prior service or return to the same career for the next term
3) Note that Advancement is DM-Rank according to this table, rather than DM-terms as elsewhere. This is a major difference, and we (My wife, my self, and our buddy Ben)
4) specialization can be changed every term in a given career (This one I'm not so certain I like...)

This chart should be near the front, not at the end, of the Char Gen process.
Yes, but is that what was really intended? I struggled with the steps this weekend and decided that there were some errors in it and rewrote it to how I *thought* they meant it to be...things went smoother for me after that.

If Mongoose tells us that the steps as written are the correct steps, I'll desist from sending my modifications to them, otherwise I'll put then into .doc format this evening and send them in (I'll post here, too.)
 
SableWyvern said:
My one major gripe with character generation is that all promotion leads to a commision -- there are no career NCOs.
I noticed that, too. There are still some of us who prefer to "work for a living"...right? :)

Eris
 
I have made two different parties and decided that the system is good. I was a bit leery of the simple tables because I’m partial to the more interesting expanded tables in the LBB (4-7). I made a single character the other day who turned out quite nice. A dilettante noble forced into a brokerage by his family, failure at business and becoming the black sheep of the family. After that he headed out for the Free Trader Merchant career and ended with a high number of Ship Shares and $50K.

So today, I decided to give him some crewmates. I ended up with a serious knuckledragger (Army/Corporate Agent/Rogue), a Merchant/Espionage, and a Engineer/Medic. Basically, everyone I came up with had a great story and a little work with Connections made it even better.

First things first, I love the skill incentive to Connections! I love Connections! It’s something that I’ve houseruled in other Lifepath systems and it’s so great to see it part of the mechanic. I think players would get a real quick out of designing this themselves. And, as a GM, I am damn glad that some of the creativity is off my watch.

QUESTION: When two players meet over a Connection/Event, does that count as the Event for both players? Or is it just the Event for one player and the other guy just fits it in?

Second, I was a bit concerned about the low-level of skills since the expanded LBB’s alleviated much of that for me. This system seemed to bring people back to the “fumbling idiot” range. My first character’s ended up with a large series of 0-level skills and a group of 1-levels, nothing higher. I think someone should have at least a 2 in something by the age of 30… There needs to be a bit more attention paid to alleviating that. Although I have to say that the individuals who stayed in the same career did a bit better. But it still is a bit light.

QUESTION: Does having Science (biology) give me a related skill in all of the other specialties?

Third, the chargen seems almost guaranteed to knock you out of your career. I didn’t have one character that stayed in the same field for their entire generation. While I like the ability to jump around, there needs to be a bit less difficulty in staying within the field of your choice. I guess I don’t know how to reconcile that but maybe even out some of the harder difficulties. What if someone WANTS to stay in the army for 4 terms? Taking care of this would also have the effect of raising skill levels at the same time. It’s darn hard to get some decent skills when you have to keep changing careers every 4-8 years.

Fourth, there are -1 DM’s for advancement based on each term? What is the point of this? Please let me know which industry, military branch or company does NOT promote people who are more skilled and have seniority? All this rule seems to do is keep the characters down. If I knew the rationale behind it, I might be more inclined to consider it balanced. Also, I liked the pre-reqs for raising a rank.

SUGGESTION: Maybe a more balanced approach would be to raise the difficulty of each Rank?

Fifth, due to the constant jumping around of careers, it seems that characters get the shaft about the 3rd term. Having to change careers results in your guy getting “one skill from Service at level 0”? That is a waste of a term, it seems and it’s quite disheartening since 0’s are never improved on… a 1 can be a 2. But a 0 just sits around until they get a 1.

SUGGESTION: Either give all basic skills at level 0, or allow the character to make one roll/pick on the service table at level 1.

Overall, I have to say that I am definitely intrigued. I’ve been picking the Trav system apart for almost 8 months creating a homebrew system and have pored over the CT/LBB books. After playing with this new system, I have to say that the above issues are the only ones that come to mind.

SERIOUS PROPS TO MONGOOSE:

Ship Shares: The greatest thing since jump drives. I can’t believe no one thought of it before! This has great potential to bring parties together.

Skill Packages: These are a great idea to allow the GM to make sure that everyone can function within a game.

Connections: Again, excellent!

COMBAT/SYSTEM:
I’ve decided to stay away from the combat system until more is released. Right now, unfortunately, it looks like something that is going to be cumbersome.

-Static Damage- This may help bookkeeping but it destroys any chance of “hitting a hand” or getting “grazed”. I’ve found that damage rolls are some of the most anticipated rolls in every RPG played… don’t destroy that. Static damage is one of the things that makes me walk right by games in the store.

-Ticks/Timing- I like where this is going but it seems a bit cumbersome and paperwork heavy. That’s on a read-only basis as I have not tried it out yet. But I hope it comes to be a bit more fluid. It’s the 21st century and combat systems have come a long way… let’s give it some love!

All that being said, this game loooooooooks great!
 
TrippyHippy said:
Tychus said:
I can understand the desire to play a "normal" character, but Citizen doesn't seem like a very compelling career. The names of Citizen career specialities are not so important - what skills would you put on the specialist tables? You can make a case for a bureaucrat (Admin, Advocate, Computer, Broker or Diplomat or Persuade, Drive or Fly), though that's not much different than the Merchant skill list.. What else? Rural - Animal and Survive are about it. Industrial/Tradesman - Mechanic, Trade(), and what? There just aren't a lot of skills to represent "citizen" type jobs.

I think all of those careers encompass a lot of skills, and I'd enjoy playing an 'average joe' character for one.

But it's not really an issue of whether each of us would personally find a career compelling or not - it's more an issue of wanting a 'complete' set of rules.

Perhaps I should have said evocative instead of compelling. I wasn't suggesting that it wouldn't be fun, but that there doesn't seem to be enough of skill set to make a Citizen career fill a niche that's missing. Just the title of every other career gives me a pretty good idea of what they deal with, what sort of skills are likely to be gained. Citizen doesn't do that.

It sounds like Citizen is meant to be a catch-all for everything not covered by somethig more specifc. Maybe that's warranted, but from a balance perspective I'm not sure if it's a great idea. Presumably it would be easy to qualify for and survive a Citizen career - which might make it the optimal path to acquiring a lot of skills with little risk. That seems wrong.
 
Eris said:
Frankly, I'd make the career...Academic...and have Scholar handle the social sciences and Scientist handle the hard sciences. Student, I'd drop...student is a rank, not a career.

Physician, doesn't fit in here...IMO. I'd make it a career totally of its own. You could have specialties like General Practice, Surgery, Emergency Care and/or Research.

Yes, I agree with most of that. I've said so before in previous posts, and my consolidated playtest report - although I happen to think that a Medic is still a good Scholar Assignment (and doesn't need it's own Career).

However, the comment the at you are responding to pertains to the skills - where several specialities of Science aren't actually sciences. I'm suggesting that the specialities should be split into seperate skills - Science and Academics.....and Medic (with specialities in Paramedic, Surgery, etc).

We are talking about two different issues though, here: Careers and the Skill list.
 
Kilgs said:
Fifth, due to the constant jumping around of careers, it seems that characters get the shaft about the 3rd term. Having to change careers results in your guy getting “one skill from Service at level 0”? That is a waste of a term, it seems and it’s quite disheartening since 0’s are never improved on… a 1 can be a 2. But a 0 just sits around until they get a 1.

SUGGESTION: Either give all basic skills at level 0, or allow the character to make one roll/pick on the service table at level 1.

My reading of basic training is that the 0-level Service skill or skills are in addition to the normal roll one gets for every term.

Ship Shares: The greatest thing since jump drives. I can’t believe no one thought of it before! This has great potential to bring parties together.

People keep acting all excited about Ship Shares. These seem to be pretty much identical in concept to Ship DMs from T:tNE. Am I misremembering how Ship DMs worked, or is it just that these weren't used in other, more popular, editions and thus most people haven't been exposed to them before?
 
NOTE: I like this Chargen system, with its great ideas, good fun and its encouragement for :
a) interaction with other players and
b) shaping your character as it goes (Events, Mishaps).
c) Mishaps are great, compared with dying in service, but (see below)

Surviving Chargen reasonably
kilgs said:
Third, the chargen seems almost guaranteed to knock you out of your career. I didn’t have one character that stayed in the same field for their entire generation. While I like the ability to jump around, there needs to be a bit less difficulty in staying within the field of your choice. [...] It’s darn hard to get some decent skills when you have to keep changing careers every 4-8 years.
Couldn't agree more with these comments. I have absolutely NO* idea how anyone has managed to make it to Admiral as, frankly, as every single character I have tried gets a Mishap and has to leave, hitting his skills badly (and can he try and re-enlist in that service? Perhaps it needs phrasing better) OR the character just can't get regular promotions. They only way to do so is to be at one end of a really narrow probability curve. The whole Survival 8+ is _really_ tight in the long term and only works well for short terms. And as for 9+ in the Drifter, it really hits bad.

kilgs said:
Fourth, there are -1 DM’s for advancement based on each term? [..notes...] SUGGESTION: Maybe a more balanced approach would be to raise the difficulty of each Rank?
Or every other rank by one. I also struggle with the -ve DM for both signing on AND for advancement, too.

Mishaps
Great idea but they really punish your character's skill progression as the bonus 1 or 2 skills for promotion are voided and they really hit mustering out (none for this turn). The whole survivor/can't get promoted thing gets _really, really_ frustrating after a while. I still haven't managed to roll up a pilot beyond 2 terms, even with +2's (which matches the odds, btw). How about lowering the Survival checks?

I looked at the maths, and they justify this experience. Characters ARE highly likely to suffer several mishaps and are very unlikely to advance much as a result. :( Not all characters have many bonus characteristic points, even if you have a generous GM (for the record, I'm trying a 12,9,9,8,7,6 - a pretty good set of rolls) .

AND the skills mentioned in Mishaps or Events should probably match the -0 level skills from basic training, otherwise characters get badly punished on an 8+ roll by their '-3' for not being skilled.

How about (1) adding in the appropriate characteristic for the skill check in Events and Mishaps as listed in the skill section
(2) Handing out a number of "Lifelines", allowing characters to cash in a lifeline for a failed mishap, but allowing any remaining at the end to be used for benefits, bonuses to aging rolls, bonuses to promotions, bonuses to avoid the '-3' DM for skill checks in Events or Mishaps?

Aging
This is really deadly. Any news on the 2d6 vs 1d6?

-------------
*Spot the frustration! :wink:
 
Back
Top