Ancestor Worship among Theists

[Voriof]

Does an ancestor require devoted worship to maintain their individuality, Elevating them to minor daemon status?

Yes, and more than the collateral 'ancestor worship' that one gets. Its possible that anceswtors who are a part of specific ancestor cults may retain more identity due to this - powerful ancestors who have useful or unique magic are sought out more than some schlemeil who's only good for power storage and a crappy Heal 2.

Its been stated in several places that this worship is only sustained if the worshippers get somethign back - otherwise they will sacrifice to more useful entities. Worship is time/money and will not generally be wasted over the long term.

Can the Ancestoral collective express an approximation of an individual through the expectations of the descendants; or put this another way could you summon Uncle Bob, but you don't get the real uncle bob just an expression through the ancestral collective of how the clan remembers him....

Probably not. Unless they are special, such a founder of a bloodline/clan, then no. However, it does state that continued worship and devotion to an entity will reveal nascent/lost powers over the course of time. So, if you started worshipping as specific ancestor, they might recover more of their former nature... operating at a higher power level, as it were.

This is implict in the wyter and guardian entity relationships where they grow in power as their worship (heroband/clan/tribe expands) and explicity stated as such.

...that sounds a bit like bovine excrement... but I'm trying to think of a way of side stepping the loss of individuality of the ancestors, allowing a temporary indivduality imposed by the descendents...
...not sure if that makes sense though.

How does that look then? Sorry, its been stated in numerous occasions that dead folks lose their identity gradually unless otherwise supported by worship/immortality.

Jeff

 

[Voriof]

I agree here, an animist summoning spell and a theist summoning spell are still just summonings. I don't see much benefit to varying the mechanics any more than is implicit in the different magic systems.

As orginally written, there was no mechanical difference in the spells though they could not summon the 'wrong' type of ancestor. That is implicit in the form of worship. You cannot generally summon a divine entity if you are an animist and sorcerers generally do not summon spirits but prefer to work with essences.

The Three Otherworlds is the way Glorantha is. Some flolks will just have to get used to the fact that this is not 1981 anymore. :roll:

Jeff

 

[simonh]

Does an ancestor require devoted worship to maintain their individuality, Elevating them to minor daemon status?

Yes, and more than the collateral 'ancestor worship' that one gets. Its possible that anceswtors who are a part of specific ancestor cults may retain more identity due to this - powerful ancestors who have useful or unique magic are sought out more than some schlemeil who's only good for power storage and a crappy Heal 2.

Its been stated in several places that this worship is only sustained if the worshippers get somethign back - otherwise they will sacrifice to more useful entities. Worship is time/money and will not generally be wasted over the long term.

So there's a bit of a chicken and egg problem here. Dop descendents onyl worship ancestors that have established a presence on the godplane/spirit plane and so have something to offer, or do ancestors only get to establish a permanent identity if they get worship?

I think it's a bit of both, you won't get very far trying to keep in touch with joe schmuck ancestor from 200 years go. IMHO it's not just the worship that does the job, they have to be worthy of worship as well.

 

[Exubae]

How does that look then? Sorry, its been stated in numerous occasions that dead folks lose their identity gradually unless otherwise supported by worship/immortality.

I agree with your comment, they lose their personality, the Ancestors are effectivelly a singular entity which expresses the common traits of the clan.

Are individually worshipped ancestor-Heroes/daemons really the actual ancestor souls or just idealised representations of the ancestor created by the whims/expectations of the clan.

Could a clan start worshipping Uncle Bill, so that an Uncle Bill daemon poped into existence based upon the clans memory of Uncle Bill? (Though Uncle Bill will have long since reincarnated.)

 

[Voriof]

So there's a bit of a chicken and egg problem here. Dop descendents onyl worship ancestors that have established a presence on the godplane/spirit plane and so have something to offer, or do ancestors only get to establish a permanent identity if they get worship?

I think it's a bit of both, you won't get very far trying to keep in touch with joe schmuck ancestor from 200 years go. IMHO it's not just the worship that does the job, they have to be worthy of worship as well.

I'd be willing to go with that. The ancestor, provided they have not been reborn, they would rebuild/recover their powers as their worship reinvigorates them.

But yeah, if they didn't have any cool powers back in the God Time (or whenever) this worship won't rekindle them. And an worshipped being who provides no powers is not worshipped for long.

I don't think that an idealized version shows up. You've got to worship something worthy of your adoration (okay, wrong word - sacrifice) before it will return any magic. Religion in Glorantha, among the Theists, is rather practical, innit?

However, collectively, the schlemeil-type ancestors provide their descendants with some power and magic from their accumulated presence.

Jeff

 

[kpmcdona]

You cannot generally summon a divine entity if you are an animist and sorcerers generally do not summon spirits but prefer to work with essences.

The Three Otherworlds is the way Glorantha is. Some flolks will just have to get used to the fact that this is not 1981 anymore.

I am actually running a Second Age game using the old (RQ2) rules, so I decided to divide the generic term "spirit" into three sub-types: daimones (theist), essences (sorcery), and Anima (animism). Thus a Summon Ancestor spell or Summon Spirit spell will call a specific type depending on the type of magic being used (theist, sorcerous, or animist). To be honest, my players don't even know I have made the distinction and use their spells as written. I only intend to bring it up if it is required in the game - probably when they start Heroquesting.

YGWV,

~Kevin McD

 

[Voriof]

I am actually running a Second Age game using the old (RQ2) rules, so I decided to divide the generic term "spirit" into three sub-types: daimones (theist), essences (sorcery), and Anima (animism). Thus a Summon Ancestor spell or Summon Spirit spell will call a specific type depending on the type of magic being used (theist, sorcerous, or animist).

YGWV,

~Kevin McD

That works well enough for me and is was what I had originally envisioned with the rules. Only when they try to summon something that's 'not from around here' or control something that's from a different Otherworld do they encounter problems - which makes for good storytelling.

I can't argue with good storytelling opportunities. I just can't. Well, usually can't.

Jeff

 

[Shorkor]

Bearing in mind the apparent contradictions of the Gloranthan universe, it seems possible to me that spirits lose their identities and stay on in the afterworld, are reincarnated, AND may be summoned with their complete identities at any time by their descendents. It may be a matter of perspective, like whether stars are beings or holes in the vault of the sky. And I simply don't see much point in calling the same spirit different things depending on who is talking about it or summoning it. Perhaps you could consider daimones, essences, and anima to be different aspects of any given spirit rather than different categories of spirits.