An Open Letter To MGP

[BuShips]

Hmmph, better than I could do. About all I know is "Das Boot" and "Wo ist die Toilette?" :lol:

 

[ScipioAmericanus]

I'm loving reading all of this, you know. We all have so much passion about the subject. Other companies should be jealous of Mongoose with fans (not fanboys, fans :!: ) such as we have here, really! This resembles a big Italian family, lol.

And I can do the feeding! Between my "you'd sell your mother to the slavers to get this recipe" chili sauce recipe (served either alone or con carne, or on anything), or my famous ranch chicken...or maybe a blackened tuna steak...or maybe just a salmon pesto...

Scip will feed you well.

Seriously, the Limeys get all the fun. We Yanks should put something together.

 

[Old Bear]

Spot on as usual Scip!

Old Bear:

I can sympathize. It's kind of like the difference between being able to answer all the questions on a TV gameshow from the comfort of your own living room, and having to answer them on live TV with $50,000 at stake.

That being said though, the occasional misspelling is one thing (happens all the time and I rarely care/notice), but when omissions are occuring that actually alter the intended rules, and indices refer to non-existant or incorrect pages, and that's happening in almost every book something is VERY wrong. At this point if you talk to the gamers in my area, MGP isn't associated with SST, or BfE, or even Conan anymore. It's associated with flub-ups. It's to the point now that a common phrase you'll hear when someone makes a mistake is something like,"Oh you totally Mongoosed it!"

Hopefully you guys can things going in the right direction, but right now it doesn't look good. :?

As far as fluff goes, I realize you guys are going to be hampered with the whole Sony deal, but is there any way around that?

It's hard for me to comment about the state of current books as it's not my department, but obviously in any situation one hopes that editing will catch this sort of error. As for Sony, it's like with any license deal - a lot of people to please!

 

[Old Bear]

As a former proof reader I can tell you that it's a lot easier when nothing is hanging on it. When you are the guy and there's nobody else it's strangely more difficult. I've met literally dozens of people who claimed they could proof read. In the past I have put them through the tests I set up when I was running RPGs and not one of them was any good when it came to the crunch.

That isn't to defend errors. I was never happy with them which was why I instituted double-proofing, but nothing is ever 100% perfect.

Agreed. I proof/edit most of the Bibliotek Reports (fan-zine for Infinity.). It's always harder than it looks, but then if you take your time you always get there.

I have to agree with a lot of what Scip is saying. I can, if MGP wants help with the art: I have adresses to quite a few good artists out there.

If I wanted to do my own criticism I'd say there are two big let downs: atmosphere and miniatures. Which considering that with rules they are the three caveats of a great game is disappointing.

What the game needs is (to my mind) the following: darker, more gritty art more in line with the SST film, a mix of Soviet style relism and propaganda with Vietnam-esque infringements. To my mind the art has never gotten off the ground. I would suggest limiting the palette for artists too and a move away from the more comic-like elements.

The graphic design also needs to be shifted. At the moment it is again, too comic-esque. A harder version of the metallic borders everywhere would be nicer and it would be great if things like reports (after action for example or requesting punishment etc.) were there. Not only can their graphic design work nicely but it also allows us to get closer to the SST universe. Fake camera type shots would be similarly excellent. The whole design needs to be simplified down: less is more.

The backround is the other thing that needs a kick. At the moment it seems to me that it can't work out whether it wants to be the CGI or the movie or the book.

As for miniatures: well, what can I say? Perhaps enlist some real b*stards to judge the greens (Frothers spring to mind) before showing them to the public. I'd also say that less should be released but what is should be better quality. Infinity has maybe 10 individual figures released per month but they sell because they are fantastic.

Of course I'm hardly a buisnessman so take this as you will.

The problem with taking any element in isolation and thinking up a fix is that when you take account everything around it the idea doesn't necessarily work. A company, any company, is a set of building blocks. It's staffed by professionals (hopefully) who know it. I'll be blunt - I take absolutely zero notice of Frothers, and I'll tell you why. I used to be a pretty big gun on RGMW, the Warhammer newsgroup. We were an absolute sharkpit back in the day that makes Frothers look like a bunc of big girls. I had some pretty strong opinions about how GW could improve things, and when Paul Sawyer, then editor of White Dwarf arrived for a few days I absolutely nuked him. He famoudsly told me I 'might be in the wrong hobby', which really stung at the time, but at a later date when i got into the business we had a laugh about how naive I had been.

The lesson is that having a big gob and lots of opinion doesn't make you right. :wink:

 

[Mr Evil]

The lesson is that having a big gob and lots of opinion doesn't make you right. :wink:

i dont think anybody whos been in the hobby or involved in the hobby from a financial point takes any notice of frothers.

if i ran my living the way frothers sugest, id be broke.

i do think that the fan base or MI could be used to proof read, maybe send each member 4-5 random pages to proof read.

 

[xeoran]

The problem with taking any element in isolation and thinking up a fix is that when you take account everything around it the idea doesn't necessarily work. A company, any company, is a set of building blocks. It's staffed by professionals (hopefully) who know it. I'll be blunt - I take absolutely zero notice of Frothers, and I'll tell you why. I used to be a pretty big gun on RGMW, the Warhammer newsgroup. We were an absolute sharkpit back in the day that makes Frothers look like a bunc of big girls. I had some pretty strong opinions about how GW could improve things, and when Paul Sawyer, then editor of White Dwarf arrived for a few days I absolutely nuked him. He famoudsly told me I 'might be in the wrong hobby', which really stung at the time, but at a later date when i got into the business we had a laugh about how naive I had been.

The lesson is that having a big gob and lots of opinion doesn't make you right. :wink:

Well...a big gob no but Frothers includes sculpters like Adam Clarke, Shane Hoyle, eBob, Kev White, Tom Meier etc etc. And many of them have decent, non professional sculpting experience. If you want to avoid the usual "Shit. Next mini." then just get some of those mentioned above and say: here are the greens, please give us constructive critisism. I don't think big gob tactics would work but getting hokd of some real quality nazis- Scipio has already offered himsel would be nice. Because lets be frank: Mongoose are nice guys but whoever let the Skinnie slaves be made needs their arse smacked.

As for the small fix. Well, I'm no pro so thats all I can offer. I can just hope that if some of those ideas interest you guys you can fiddle with them and make them work. Thats why you guys are pros.

Mr. Evil, I'm shocked, shocked I tell you. :wink: Frothers doesn't actually support high level spending. Look at me: I'm a poor student with no cash whos alsao a Frother. And yet I get by.

 

[Old Bear]

The lesson is that having a big gob and lots of opinion doesn't make you right. :wink:

i dont think anybody whos been in the hobby or involved in the hobby from a financial point takes any notice of frothers.

if i ran my living the way frothers sugest, id be broke.

i do think that the fan base or MI could be used to proof read, maybe send each member 4-5 random pages to proof read.

It's not practical when you take deadlines into account. That's the other thing about professional proofreading. You are working to a deadline, which often might demand upwards of 10 pages an hour to read. Also a case of too many cooks...

 

[Old Bear]

The problem with taking any element in isolation and thinking up a fix is that when you take account everything around it the idea doesn't necessarily work. A company, any company, is a set of building blocks. It's staffed by professionals (hopefully) who know it. I'll be blunt - I take absolutely zero notice of Frothers, and I'll tell you why. I used to be a pretty big gun on RGMW, the Warhammer newsgroup. We were an absolute sharkpit back in the day that makes Frothers look like a bunc of big girls. I had some pretty strong opinions about how GW could improve things, and when Paul Sawyer, then editor of White Dwarf arrived for a few days I absolutely nuked him. He famoudsly told me I 'might be in the wrong hobby', which really stung at the time, but at a later date when i got into the business we had a laugh about how naive I had been.

The lesson is that having a big gob and lots of opinion doesn't make you right. :wink:

Well...a big gob no but Frothers includes sculpters like Adam Clarke, Shane Hoyle, eBob, Kev White, Tom Meier etc etc. And many of them have decent, non professional sculpting experience. If you want to avoid the usual "****. Next mini." then just get some of those mentioned above and say: here are the greens, please give us constructive critisism. I don't think big gob tactics would work but getting hokd of some real quality nazis- Scipio has already offered himsel would be nice. Because lets be frank: Mongoose are nice guys but whoever let the Skinnie slaves be made needs their arse smacked.

As for the small fix. Well, I'm no pro so thats all I can offer. I can just hope that if some of those ideas interest you guys you can fiddle with them and make them work. Thats why you guys are pros.

Mr. Evil, I'm shocked, shocked I tell you. :wink: Frothers doesn't actually support high level spending. Look at me: I'm a poor student with no cash whos alsao a Frother. And yet I get by.

Needless to say I've worked with dozens of sculptors, but again, if I want a basic opinion, I'll use my eyes which have been looking at wargaming minis for the past 35 years. Like I said, an opinion taken out of context isn't worth much. As for the Skinnie Slaves, well that person needing his arse smacked would be me. I'm the Miniatures Manager and any minis this company makes pass over my desk.

I'm not going to go into my opinion of them nor the variety of conditions at the time of their manfacture nor indeed the guidelines I was working under. Like I said, it's context. I want every mini we make to be the best thing since sliced bread. However, the miniatures department does not exist in a Utopian isolated vacuum. It works to company policy an in association with almost every other part of the company. I don't have a bottomless budget nor unlimited time. Nobody does.

 

[Hiromoon]

For those not in the know, what is a Frother?

Is it:

"...one who as a result of childhood trauma or chemical imbalances seeks stimulation through exploring fantastical situations within a framework of rules. Frothers are so called because of the many small bubbles of saliva formed when they examine or discuss aspects of these situations, the rules, and any props required by the rules- usually at great length and with a completely unnecessary attention to detail. This makes them very unattractive to members of the opposite sex, thus compounding their trauma." - Doc

 

[Old Bear]

It's a hardcore forum for gamers to sound off. Your description isn't bad... :wink:

 

[Hiromoon]

I got it from FU!UK....

So..umm..can I get an updated set of unit stats for BF:Ev? I'm a little embaressed that my cards arn't up to date...

 

[Galatea]

I also think the MI should be taken for proof reading if they want.

It simply prevent many obvious mistakes.
Probably it's hard to understand - but I know from my own experience, if you work everyday with a book you often simply CAN'T SEE some of the mistakes in there. It sounds odd, but because you are so used to the book you tend to be blind there.

Someone who has never read the book will need 10 minutes to find mistakes you haven't seen for half a year.

p.s. Scipio, thanks for the nice post
Your german is rather good (and german is a very resistant speech - you can do a hell of grammatical and syntax mess and people still understand you *g*)

Of course we gain for quality. And we will react appropriate if we don't get it.
We are very good in complaining about everything :roll:
(that's sometimes sad, but definitely true)

 

[darklord4]

As someone that would like to see this game be super successful, I would also like to offer my services to proofread some preliminary material. As far as experience, I used to grade papers in college for grammar and spelling errors. The papers were also technical in nature, so I also had to make sure that what the papers were describing was true...or at least somewhat logical.

 

[xeoran]

Needless to say I've worked with dozens of sculptors, but again, if I want a basic opinion, I'll use my eyes which have been looking at wargaming minis for the past 35 years. Like I said, an opinion taken out of context isn't worth much. As for the Skinnie Slaves, well that person needing his arse smacked would be me. I'm the Miniatures Manager and any minis this company makes pass over my desk.

I'm not going to go into my opinion of them nor the variety of conditions at the time of their manfacture nor indeed the guidelines I was working under. Like I said, it's context. I want every mini we make to be the best thing since sliced bread. However, the miniatures department does not exist in a Utopian isolated vacuum. It works to company policy an in association with almost every other part of the company. I don't have a bottomless budget nor unlimited time. Nobody does.

OK, I realise you aren't working in a utopian environment, MGP is a company after all. I realise that context means a lot (but to a bloke on the street if I see naff minis with a sprinkling of cool ones then I form my own opinions, context or no context. In my opinion it would be better to do as Infinity does and delay the schedule on stuff that needs more time to be done or needs to be redone. Thats just me though.)However I still feel that a company that was able to OK and have in by the deadline the LAMI which then goes on to OK the Skinnie Slaves needs to work things out slightly. Or rather just keep hiring the LAMI sculptor.

Opinions out of context isn't work much. But Kev White saying that either the mini is brilliant/crap does to my mind work. And if 90% of your possible market are saying a fig sucks then context ceases to matter.

Everything I say here is because I love the films, love the game and want Mongoose to succeed.

 

[ScipioAmericanus]

xeoran:

I think we all share the same love of the game/book/movie/series...otherwise why would we invest so much time and energy and passion? We all want SST to be as great as possible and live up to its potential.

For me personally, I saw the game going in a direction I knew in my heart was the wrong way. That and the spotty quality led me to the frustration point and I bailed. But ya know, I started to miss what the game COULD BE, miss being a small part of it, and really, really miss the folks on these boards! No other game I've been associated with has the same lovable bunch of knuckleheads as part of its community!!!! That is DEFINITELY something MGP need to capitalise on.

btw...I like your idea of going to a darker atmosphere! It's intriguing. Not only that, it's believable. I mean, humanity finds itself in a multi-front war for its very existence...it's only natural that society might "tighten up," become more repressive , etc. Personal liberties might be curtailed, and of course there's the ever-present need for more "meat for the grinder." Can anyone say "draft?" Might happen.

I think it should be explored further.

Regards.

 

[xeoran]

btw...I like your idea of going to a darker atmosphere! It's intriguing. Not only that, it's believable. I mean, humanity finds itself in a multi-front war for its very existence...it's only natural that society might "tighten up," become more repressive , etc. Personal liberties might be curtailed, and of course there's the ever-present need for more "meat for the grinder." Can anyone say "draft?" Might happen.

I think it should be explored further.

Good points Scipio. I agree totally.

For the darker: well, I always found the black humour of the movie very stimulating and I've always loved Joe Haldermans "The Forever War" (Great book, Like Heinleins except with no love for the military.). I view the SST world as using ANY means to prevent fear/sedition etc, even if only imagined. A bit like the Stalinist purges mixed with Paranoia ("Neighbour acting stragely? Come to your local Federal Government information centre today..." etc. Public informing stations with bright posters of safe families etc. Mass conscription (but perhaps, in a mirror to the war in Iraq and the one in Vietnam the sons of bigwigs are not conscripted/more unlikely to go into the military etc.). Public executions for failure, gulags for "Xeno-sympathisers", emphasis on mothers breeding "new meat for the grinder", rumours of cloning to createmore troops etc. Something like the Patriot act etc.

Obviously we don't want to go all the way (but even having for example school proms being funded by the Federal government adds to the atmosphere) but a little more grit and darkness wouldn't go amiss for me.

 

[Hiromoon]

I perfer bright and shiney. I've already had my fill of dark and forboding with a different game.

 

[Poko]

beware.quick is the path to the dark side. begins it with "grittier feel", and ends it in skulls and scrolls on every possible surface of the mini.
*pathetic Yoda impersonation off*
seriously, i'v said it elsewhere-the "doom and gloom" is now tired and well, to me at least, unintresting. it would be nice, for once, to not be on the eternal defenive, and "desperatly trying to defend the Imperi..eee,Federation". i'd stay with the orginal book feel, that was realistic in the way it depicted the workings of the system. no paranoid nazi/soviet style gov,that's also a tired cliche for humans to be governed by one. take a look at the Infinity or At-43, they all*as far as i can gauge from the downloadable material*have a rather..well, if not optimistic side, then definetly not pessimistic.
i'v always envisaged Federation more in line with Roman republic and later empire, when it was only beggining to grow-it also resulted in lots of border wars with barbarians and mediterrean nations. i see the federation as doing exactly that-growing state, that finds it's not free to do as it pleases in the galaxy. the bugs should remain as the main Villan, and other races should be shown more as normal states, that happen to collide with mankind as the humans try to push te borders forward. i'd love to see the MI in their book job of being the Gov's pressure instrrumenet. hell,there could be an entire series of fluff books on the Human-Alien diplomatic interactions. wouldn't it be more intresting to read how the Ambassador to the Forth tries to stop the encroach of said race on a low-populated human colony, and having an MI company deployed there to discourage any offensive action than another "we are at war with the entire universe, because our rulers are goddamn idiots lost in the dreams of grandeur"?

well, to each their own, i guess

 

[ScipioAmericanus]

beware.quick is the path to the dark side. begins it with "grittier feel", and ends it in skulls and scrolls on every possible surface of the mini.
*pathetic Yoda impersonation off*
seriously, i'v said it elsewhere-the "doom and gloom" is now tired and well, to me at least, unintresting. it would be nice, for once, to not be on the eternal defenive, and "desperatly trying to defend the Imperi..eee,Federation". i'd stay with the orginal book feel, that was realistic in the way it depicted the workings of the system. no paranoid nazi/soviet style gov,that's also a tired cliche for humans to be governed by one. take a look at the Infinity or At-43, they all*as far as i can gauge from the downloadable material*have a rather..well, if not optimistic side, then definetly not pessimistic.
i'v always envisaged Federation more in line with Roman republic and later empire, when it was only beggining to grow-it also resulted in lots of border wars with barbarians and mediterrean nations. i see the federation as doing exactly that-growing state, that finds it's not free to do as it pleases in the galaxy. the bugs should remain as the main Villan, and other races should be shown more as normal states, that happen to collide with mankind as the humans try to push te borders forward. i'd love to see the MI in their book job of being the Gov's pressure instrrumenet. hell,there could be an entire series of fluff books on the Human-Alien diplomatic interactions. wouldn't it be more intresting to read how the Ambassador to the Forth tries to stop the encroach of said race on a low-populated human colony, and having an MI company deployed there to discourage any offensive action than another "we are at war with the entire universe, because our rulers are goddamn idiots lost in the dreams of grandeur"?

well, to each their own, i guess

Poko, you make some excellent, excellent points. As a book devotee you have struck a chord with me so deeply, in fact, that you've made me change my opinion.

While I could see it happening that the Federation becomes more oppressive (and paranoid) as the species war escalates, I think your points are probably more the way to go...and more Heinlein-esque I might add. Well done!

You also reinforce one of my primary contentions: MORE fluff, not less. Not only would it flesh out the mini game, it very well might breathe some new life into the RPG! Hell, MGP could even go so far as to include a "Why We Fight" propaganda piece in each S&P.

Your analogy of the Roman republic is also very good. Hmmm...we could even view Big K #1 as the Federation's Cannae!

Excellent insights!

Regards.

P.S. Good Yoda impersonation! :lol:

 

[Poko]

Scipio-
i couldn't agree more on the "Moar Fluff" attitude, i'm a fluff nut to the bone. not so much of a "fluffy gamer", as i tend to try and create the best army list instead of the most fluffiest(but not a hardcore PG either, you won't see me fielding a Exogrizzly army of doom :wink: ), but i just love to have a well developed background behind my little army men (that's the main reason i stuck with 40k so long. for all it's vices it has a reasonably well developed background). that's one thing the SST books seemed to lack-the main book was rather ok, it gave you the basic outline, but for eg. MI book had very thin fluff section, and most of it was the equipment description.

however, right now, i'm wondering if it's really necesarry to try and put all the stuff in the Big Book. maybe it should contain only the basics on each race, and later on, MGP could release Campaign Books ,simmiliar to the Klendathu Invasion,but not limited to a single event. so, a book named "Vesuvia claiming", describing in-depth the reasons that lead to losing this system to the Skinnies, the actions during the campaign, and the aftermath. obvioulsy a map and some special rules(since the rules for campaigns are suppsed to be in the BB)for that campaign. or, if it's feasable, more total approach could be taken-instead of one campaign, a book could focus on a whole state. "a guide to Skinny hegemony for Cadets", describing the what you would expect in such book, along with a few campaign maps to copy and play. one a year, so the company has time to develop the books to a state of near-perfection, and voila :wink: .the best part? it can serve both as a Mini game and RPG sourcebook 8)

*and posters! we MUST have big,glossy posters with slogans like "join now, and kill a Roach for your Planet" :wink: *