An Open Letter To MGP

[ScipioAmericanus]

Well, I never thought I'd say it, but my copy of AT-43 arrives tomorrow.

Rackham, it seems, continue to raise the bar. When I first saw the minis I said " Ok. Not bad. Way better than MGP will be able to pull off." Then I hit the AT-43 site, where they actually SHOW you comparisons between studio paints, factory paints, and "go ahead and prime it yourself." That REALLY impressed me. Contrast that with "our stuff is crap, but now it's really not that bad, so buy it anyway and we'll make it up to you..we promise."

Visions of Monkey-faced MI, Skinnie Slaves and Firefires still haunt me...

Wow. Show the customer the product (and a darned good one). Show the customer the ideal version. Give the customer a way to customize and improve if they so wish. What a novel concept.

No excuses about pictures (an old adage says "the camera doesn't lie"), just a studied release schedule and obvious quality control.

"Better than 90% of gamers can paint?" No. Rackham never made that claim as far as I know. But they're a world better than that latest offering from MGP (IMHO). If I'm wrong when I have the figs in hand, I will gladly say so...but I don't think I'm gonna be wrong.

I haven't been yet.

As I posted before I left: I LOVE SST. And now I want to save it. I want to save it from "monkey-sculpts," marginal pre-paints, and the lack of a coherent and compelling background. Rules are not enough!!!!!!!
SST won BEST at Origins 2005. It COULD have been the 40K killer.

Who's fault is it that it wasn't?

MGP: I'm sorry, but I have to be blunt...pull your heads out of yer arses! The rules have never been an issue! It was the quality of the releases (both minis and books). Marginal pre-paints WILL NOT save SST. Half-a$$ed supplements riddled with typos won't either.

The time has come for a "If it's not PERFECT it doesn't ship" mentality. Notice I said "PERFECT" not "passable."

I suggest the following: pre-paints ONLY as a "STARTER SET." With ALL other figures (done by TALENTED sculptors) released un-painted. That does three things:

1) Attracts novice gamers
2) Guarantees repeat business
3) Lowers your investment in pre-paints

Along with that, you're going to have to do MORE background, not less. The more compelling and immersive you make your universe, the more attractive it is. How can someone choose an army if they don't know what makes it tick or even who it is???

And along that line: if you don't include stats for all previous SST units in your new rulebook you've automatically alienated ALL of the people who spent so much time trying to make SST successful. (Sorry to preach, but I sort of saw this coming too) New units? Well...I think I've made my case that they SHOULD NOT BE pre-paints.

Oh well. The last time I commented on some of the same issues, I got SLAMMED. Hopefully, this missive will be taken as a sincere attempt to help you make SST everything it should be.

Regards,

Dave and Taco

P.S. No more "pie in the sky promises!" In the words of Quincy Jones: "Don't let your mouth write a check that your body can't cash." In other words...promise less. Then, when you deliver EARLY you look like a hero...

 

[Soulmage]

While I can understand your sentiments and agree with some of your points, I think that:

1. SST:Evo can still be the 40k killer if properly executed.

2. Quality prepaints offer a tremendous competitive advantage vs. GW games.

3. Some lessons will have to be learned from the BF:E rollout and applied to the roll out of SST:Evo. Review everything that happened, figure out why it went wrong, and how it can be prevented in the future. Identify the things that went right, and how to replicate them as well.

4. Scipio is 100% right about quality standards. Under no circumstances should SST:Evo be released before it is 100% ready. If you miss your target ship date, so be it. MGP cannot afford less than a stellar launch of SST:Evo.

5. Expectations management is critical. Under promise, over deliver.

6. Take advantage of your fan community. There are dozens of folks here who will do painstaking proofreads of your manuscripts looking for typos, rules gaps and so forth before they go to print. Don't rush them and take care to correct the things they point out. Too many times with many different companies, I've seen errors corrected in playtest/review only to see them still go into print because the schedule was rushed and/or somebody missed it.

- EVERYTHING that is cut and pasted from anywhere to anywhere should be reviewed line by line, word by word, by somebody who has never seen it before.

7. You should have the first production figures back before the first preview pic goes up. Be 100% sure of what you are getting. Even if you get things worked out on the BF:E side of things, do not assume they will be ok for SST:Evo. Verify, verify, verify!

8. People are waiting for this. The game will sell itself if you get a quality product in front of people at GenCon, either this year or next. You don't need a huge media blitz to push it before its ready and potentially cause your problems down the line. Start your big campaign AFTER you have something to sell. Sure, there will be some inventory holding costs, but I assure you they will be less costly than a bungled launch of your flagship product.

9. Once you have your "final" manuscripts, send them out again to a different group of people. Just to see what reaction you get from fresh eyes and to see if they spot something the other folks missed or understood differently.

 

[ScipioAmericanus]

6. Take advantage of your fan community. There are dozens of folks here who will do painstaking proofreads of your manuscripts looking for typos, rules gaps and so forth before they go to print. Don't rush them and take care to correct the things they point out. Too many times with many different companies, I've seen errors corrected in playtest/review only to see them still go into print because the schedule was rushed and/or somebody missed it.

I can only echo what Soulmage says. Having been lucky enough to be in several original SST publications, I, would be happy to proof or even contribute to a more coherent SST universe.

What is lacking, I believe, is a coherent "vision." Also, I believe MGP has GOT to take the blinders off. While they may have ample experience and success as an RPG/Rules company, I do not beleive they fully understand miniatures gaming...yet.

 

[MaxSteiner]

Oh well. The last time I commented on some of the same issues, I got SLAMMED. Hopefully, this missive will be taken as a sincere attempt to help you make SST everything it should be.

I don't think the slammers have all that much left in them right now thanks to the BF:E debacle.
As for the saving of SST, lets hope it can be done because this is the last shot!

For my 2c I'd like to see more blister packs offered as opposed/in conjunction with boxed sets and more background like your saying, in a decent rulebook! If unit stats are out, for gods sake put something back in there (not absolutly meaningless diagrams on double page spreads though).

 

[Gauntlet-]

Hear hear,

My biggest worry is that Mongoose failed at publishing consistent quality in the more traditional Non-pre-paints... Now they are trying the less known pre-paint process, and well... that doesnt boast well...

MGP doesnt seem willing to accept that miniature sculpts need to be close to perfect to seriously compete with the existing mini-gamers... sure you might attract new ppl to the genre with pre-paints... but those are not going to outnumber traditional mini-gamer fans at least not initially, and thats who you need to sell to no?

THe rules were never a problem, but then again I dont think they are changing anything too fundamentally... obviously the reaction system is different but not by much... and the rules is what MGP excels at so im sure itll be an improvement...

hell even the sculpts wernt that bad, at least not for most units...

it was packaging, the book art was terrible, the fluff was lacking, serious commentary was missing, and too much money spent on silly side show units like Mk 2 neo dogs... the biggest draw to this game, would/should be the air units, which they never came out with... thats the biggest difference between SST and every other mini-wargame there is, it has good standard air units and rules. and there is no cheap aircraft miniature out there.

 

[BuShips]

There is some real potential for SST to be a "second invasion". Heck, even the Mobile Infantry didn't win the first time they dropped onto Klendathu, now did they? :wink: I think Scipio has a lot of love for the subject and is going the "tough love" route with Mongoose. I'm in a good mood just now because I came here from seeing the new wave 2 pics of BF:E http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/p...ghlight=&sid=c49db9f946ca667fded3a5dfbe63caa2. If Mongoose keeps their crosshairs on the factory process and this becomes more of the standard than what was indicated at first, then my expectations of the "second coming" (pardon me) of SST will be met. I have a feeling that part of the "splash" will be the final release of the promised air units. To me, Mongoose is wading through the "hard part" of their new PPMs with the BF:E launch and it sure appears to me to be improving with the wave 2 pics. As I also stated in earlier posts of mine, the acid test is sales kiddies.

 

[BonhomityJohnson]

While Rackham didn't promise anything in terms of percentages correct me if I'm wrong but this side-by-side comparison has come conveniently late in the day and possibly on the back of MGP's problems. Am I being cynical or earlier in the process weren't Racham implying that their studio paints were the finished models?

 

[Morg]

6. Take advantage of your fan community. (...)

9. Once you have your "final" manuscripts, send them out again to a different group of people. Just to see what reaction you get from fresh eyes and to see if they spot something the other folks missed or understood differently.

I want to second this. The Mongoose Infantry is a perfect resource for this kind of work, but has been kind of underused so far.

MGP, get aware of your resources and use them. Your MI would love to get involved.

 

[Mage]

It would be a chepa way of editing, not to mention marketting and customer information all rolled into one. Just email it as an adobe file. Bam.

 

[Alexb83]

I think Mongoose should really consider what we, the existing players need/want, as much as they try and consider what new players (the people they're trying to get into the game) need/want to get started.

All existing models remain in production and supported by the new rules - excellent, although I was a bit dismayed at the early take on pathfinders at the preview day last year.

But what existing players want, much like in ACTA, is not necessarily new races, but to get out the models we're already missing and have been waiting for - Air units, queen bugs, that sort of thing.

So; the first wave of SST: Evo should clearly be core units for each army; warriors, brain, CAPs, LAMI, Grizzlies - these all seem to be covered but these are only going to sell to new players. To keep existing players in the game, rather than living off the old rules/models (which we pretty much could) the TAC fighter, slingshot etc. need to be out pretty darn quick in the launch scheme.

 

[Mr Evil]

6. Take advantage of your fan community. There are dozens of folks here who will do painstaking proofreads of your manuscripts looking for typos, rules gaps and so forth before they go to print. Don't rush them and take care to correct the things they point out. Too many times with many different companies, I've seen errors corrected in playtest/review only to see them still go into print because the schedule was rushed and/or somebody missed it.

I can only echo what Soulmage says. Having been lucky enough to be in several original SST publications, I, would be happy to proof or even contribute to a more coherent SST universe.

What is lacking, I believe, is a coherent "vision." Also, I believe MGP has GOT to take the blinders off. While they may have ample experience and success as an RPG/Rules company, I do not beleive they fully understand miniatures gaming...yet.

i have to agree here, within 15 mins of getting the original rule book i spotted nearly every mistake going and every gap in the rules, while my gf can proof read at a profesional and speedy rate.

within 2 games me and graham had found some interesting ways the rules needed to be exsplained better or be open to abuse.

i have like many played a lot of rule sytems, i evan played lazerburn (1st edition 40k) and evan developed a game system many years ago that did shows and got alot of great feedback (this was in the time the market was on a bit of a dive for independents)

every thing a game does you should look at and say, could i do this a little faster, simpler and more dynamic, in bf-evo it retains the dice alocation problem befor armour saves, works great for small games but in huge games causes a slow down, any sytem made shoul make games faster at large scale not slower.

i dont think any game should be a 40k killer, i think 40k is a great way to introduce children to the hobby, and allows the smaller companies to let GW to spend the time and effort in advertising to get people into games, the ones that are worth keeping will exsplore the world of wargames and discover these other sytems then show their friends.

every body agree alot of the art work was questionable, but then was some of the original 40k art work.

if mongoose wishes for a reliable playtester they should check grey out on the forums, he doesnt post as much as many, but he has a good grasp on how far people can push the rules and seeing what tactics are capable to be played with them. ive probably used sprites more than any other player on the forums,and have alot of insight in to their use and tactics and feel, yet this has never been utalised.

as for the monkey fases, lol, well my face looks like a monkeys in an enclosed helmet, so it doesnt bother me.

from what ive played of BF-evo i can see SST evo being very good, but again not designed for mass mass combats.

 

[tneva82]

To keep existing players in the game, rather than living off the old rules/models (which we pretty much could) the TAC fighter, slingshot etc. need to be out pretty darn quick in the launch scheme.

I'm pretty sure Matt said those were given high priority in the release schedelude(the air force).

 

[tneva82]

from what ive played of BF-evo i can see SST evo being very good, but again not designed for mass mass combats.

? Albeit I haven't played that many big battles but the big battles so far haven't seen that much of hard going. And that was with trying to teach newbie into the game along in one occasion...

SST rules don't slow all that much even in big battles and EVO rules seems to speed up the process even more. I would say big battles is specifically where SST shines at it's best.

 

[Old Bear]

As a former proof reader I can tell you that it's a lot easier when nothing is hanging on it. When you are the guy and there's nobody else it's strangely more difficult. I've met literally dozens of people who claimed they could proof read. In the past I have put them through the tests I set up when I was running RPGs and not one of them was any good when it came to the crunch.

That isn't to defend errors. I was never happy with them which was why I instituted double-proofing, but nothing is ever 100% perfect.

 

[Stonehorse]

Well, I never thought I'd say it, but my copy of AT-43 arrives tomorrow.

Rackham, it seems, continue to raise the bar. When I first saw the minis I said " Ok. Not bad. Way better than MGP will be able to pull off." Then I hit the AT-43 site, where they actually SHOW you comparisons between studio paints, factory paints, and "go ahead and prime it yourself." That REALLY impressed me. Contrast that with "our stuff is crap, but now it's really not that bad, so buy it anyway and we'll make it up to you..we promise."

Visions of Monkey-faced MI, Skinnie Slaves and Firefires still haunt me...

Wow. Show the customer the product (and a darned good one). Show the customer the ideal version. Give the customer a way to customize and improve if they so wish. What a novel concept.

No excuses about pictures (an old adage says "the camera doesn't lie"), just a studied release schedule and obvious quality control.

"Better than 90% of gamers can paint?" No. Rackham never made that claim as far as I know. But they're a world better than that latest offering from MGP (IMHO). If I'm wrong when I have the figs in hand, I will gladly say so...but I don't think I'm gonna be wrong.

I haven't been yet.

As I posted before I left: I LOVE SST. And now I want to save it. I want to save it from "monkey-sculpts," marginal pre-paints, and the lack of a coherent and compelling background. Rules are not enough!!!!!!!
SST won BEST at Origins 2005. It COULD have been the 40K killer.

Who's fault is it that it wasn't?

MGP: I'm sorry, but I have to be blunt...pull your heads out of yer arses! The rules have never been an issue! It was the quality of the releases (both minis and books). Marginal pre-paints WILL NOT save SST. Half-a$$ed supplements riddled with typos won't either.

The time has come for a "If it's not PERFECT it doesn't ship" mentality. Notice I said "PERFECT" not "passable."

I suggest the following: pre-paints ONLY as a "STARTER SET." With ALL other figures (done by TALENTED sculptors) released un-painted. That does three things:

1) Attracts novice gamers
2) Guarantees repeat business
3) Lowers your investment in pre-paints

Along with that, you're going to have to do MORE background, not less. The more compelling and immersive you make your universe, the more attractive it is. How can someone choose an army if they don't know what makes it tick or even who it is???

And along that line: if you don't include stats for all previous SST units in your new rulebook you've automatically alienated ALL of the people who spent so much time trying to make SST successful. (Sorry to preach, but I sort of saw this coming too) New units? Well...I think I've made my case that they SHOULD NOT BE pre-paints.

Oh well. The last time I commented on some of the same issues, I got SLAMMED. Hopefully, this missive will be taken as a sincere attempt to help you make SST everything it should be.

Regards,

Dave and Taco

P.S. No more "pie in the sky promises!" In the words of Quincy Jones: "Don't let your mouth write a check that your body can't cash." In other words...promise less. Then, when you deliver EARLY you look like a hero...

Agree 100%

I've been watching AT-43 for a long time and was very hyped up over it's development. Then I saw some photos of the pre-paints (these where very bad photos with a lot of flash) and I was put off, so I waited to see what MGP would be doing with SST. Then one of the clubs regulars brought in the AT-43 box set and 2 days letter I bought a box set. I was going to hold out for SST, but after I saw the horrid pre-painted jobs on the BF:evo that changed.

I love SST, the rules are great and as everyone has said were never the problem, it's the models. And if what we are seeing with BF:evo is anything to go by things look to be getting worse. I really hope that MGP wake up and look at the models they are trying to sell off compaired to other companies, ok so not all the range is bad. Pathfinders, Warriors Bugs, Tanker Bugs, and Plasma Bugs are very good models... the rest is quite frankly 2 decades behind the quality of modern day table top wargaming.

There is hope for SST, and it dosen't lie with horrid pre-painted models.

Even if the worst comes to happen and MGP make a royal f**k up of SST I've still got 2 players at my club and didn't spend that much on this game system. Either that are I start using other companies modesl as stand ins.

 

[MaxSteiner]

every body agree alot of the art work was questionable, but then was some of the original 40k art work.

Um.... Dude even if some of the artwork in rogue trader was poo its completly outweighed by the hundreds of awesome illustrations.
SST on the other hand had some screen grabs, some cringinly bad stuff and about two good pictures, its not a fair comparison.

Back to more important issues though I agree that mongoose should make better use of its sometime fanaticle fan base.
Can't be bothered to write any fluff? How about a competition, hell you probably wouldnt even need to offer a prize (Although a free copy of the rules or a box of troops isnt going to break the bank).
Proof reading is definatly a major concern too, nothing turns people off like typos in a rulebook.

 

[Galatea]

I agree with some important things.

-Verify quality: DO not ship anything before you have seen about 10.000 Figures.

-Use your supporters: They will read the rules for you, tell you any mistakes and give you a good feedback

-Use your supporters: Encourage them to spread the game and show massive presence on Conventions when SST:Evo comes out.

-Use your supporters: If SST Evo comes out it needs some kind of big worldwide campaign, probably starting in January 2008 (when most of the models are out). The MI can help to organize this and probably even some fans who design websites and tourney report programs will be there.
It doesn't care whether this is a fight for single planet or a cluster of system, the important thing is to show presence in the shops and in the web.

 

[Quark]

Spot on as usual Scip!

Old Bear:

I can sympathize. It's kind of like the difference between being able to answer all the questions on a TV gameshow from the comfort of your own living room, and having to answer them on live TV with $50,000 at stake.

That being said though, the occasional misspelling is one thing (happens all the time and I rarely care/notice), but when omissions are occuring that actually alter the intended rules, and indices refer to non-existant or incorrect pages, and that's happening in almost every book something is VERY wrong. At this point if you talk to the gamers in my area, MGP isn't associated with SST, or BfE, or even Conan anymore. It's associated with flub-ups. It's to the point now that a common phrase you'll hear when someone makes a mistake is something like,"Oh you totally Mongoosed it!"

Hopefully you guys can things going in the right direction, but right now it doesn't look good. :?

As far as fluff goes, I realize you guys are going to be hampered with the whole Sony deal, but is there any way around that?

 

[xeoran]

As a former proof reader I can tell you that it's a lot easier when nothing is hanging on it. When you are the guy and there's nobody else it's strangely more difficult. I've met literally dozens of people who claimed they could proof read. In the past I have put them through the tests I set up when I was running RPGs and not one of them was any good when it came to the crunch.

That isn't to defend errors. I was never happy with them which was why I instituted double-proofing, but nothing is ever 100% perfect.

Agreed. I proof/edit most of the Bibliotek Reports (fan-zine for Infinity.). It's always harder than it looks, but then if you take your time you always get there.

I have to agree with a lot of what Scip is saying. I can, if MGP wants help with the art: I have adresses to quite a few good artists out there.

If I wanted to do my own criticism I'd say there are two big let downs: atmosphere and miniatures. Which considering that with rules they are the three caveats of a great game is disappointing.

What the game needs is (to my mind) the following: darker, more gritty art more in line with the SST film, a mix of Soviet style relism and propaganda with Vietnam-esque infringements. To my mind the art has never gotten off the ground. I would suggest limiting the palette for artists too and a move away from the more comic-like elements.

The graphic design also needs to be shifted. At the moment it is again, too comic-esque. A harder version of the metallic borders everywhere would be nicer and it would be great if things like reports (after action for example or requesting punishment etc.) were there. Not only can their graphic design work nicely but it also allows us to get closer to the SST universe. Fake camera type shots would be similarly excellent. The whole design needs to be simplified down: less is more.

The backround is the other thing that needs a kick. At the moment it seems to me that it can't work out whether it wants to be the CGI or the movie or the book.

As for miniatures: well, what can I say? Perhaps enlist some real b*stards to judge the greens (Frothers spring to mind) before showing them to the public. I'd also say that less should be released but what is should be better quality. Infinity has maybe 10 individual figures released per month but they sell because they are fantastic.

Of course I'm hardly a buisnessman so take this as you will.

 

[Gauntlet-]

for graphic design and general art quality

Look at Twilight Imperium the board game... download the rules they are free... google the term and look at images.... That is high quality graphic artistry... thats what people will buy. The 'tech border' used and little tech review bubbles of units is gawd awful.

Examples of what NOT to do

Arachnid Army Book
Page 6/7
Page 8 graphic could be better
Pages 10/11 is what I expect on a high-tech PC game from 1993
Page 12 Graphic looks absurd.
Page 14 Graphic is my cousin's quality of work (hes eight)
Page 19 makes no sense, that map is useless... good concept

The Hobby section is fine, but really needs 1. more varied terrain, and dont use the 'rustic' building set... this is Science Fiction.

Page 54/55 Honestly here... its a great picture and you ruined it by puting it between 2 pages..

Good Things
Page 16/18
Page 20/21 could be cleaner but its a nice touch and reasonable quality
Page 36 picture is nice

Thats just one book...



EDIT- if your gonna use screen caps, get the computer files/models and make some new renders at a higher quality.