Alternate Character Advancement

[gerzel]

I have been reading through the first book and I am wondering what other ways are there to advance characters as they are played?

I can sorta see the current system as making sense with the more skills you have the harder it is to get more, but there again the brain is a muscle like any other and the more you use it, not to mention physical skills like athletics and stealth where one would expect training in one to make learning the other easier.

I'm sorta partial to giving characters "attempts" to learn skills rather than direct skill points. Each previous attempt to learn a skill makes the next attempt easier, and couple this with the requirement of the character actually taking some time to train the skill, or otherwise practicing the skill either through study or use.

 

[Infojunky]

I am not fond of that mechanic...

Players tend to like being able to be reported at the end of a process instead of the random chance of failing that work.

Or at least that is my group.

 

[gerzel]

I am not fond of that mechanic...

Players tend to like being able to be reported at the end of a process instead of the random chance of failing that work.

Or at least that is my group.

Well I mean giving the players after each session a number of attempts to increase their skills.

While individual attempts may fail the more attepmpts they put on a skill the more likely it will be for that skill to go up.

 

[AKAmra]

I'm not a fan of rolling for advancement, it has created frustration amongst my players in the past using RQ or other BRP skill games. Unlucky players suffer while their fellow players are rewarded for one good roll. I've house ruled EXP systems for those games. Of course, this only applies to my players, other groups my not have this problem.

I'm not fond of time keeping advancement systems either, like MGT RAW, I don't like the book keeping and need to arbitrate how much time a given PC has to apply to training.

I'm considering replacing a MGT's week of training with a 1 EXP requirement and awarding 1 EXP per game. Players can save them up and use them as they want - with proper in-game role playing supporting the gain in skill (find a teacher, spend the time training, etc.). The advantage here is that the advancement system is simple and the training time can be handled informally since it's not being used as the "braking system".

My only concern is that I don't want rapid character advancement, since I don't want "leveling up" being the primary focus of my Traveller game, and 1 EXP per game may be too much. I just want players to be able to tweak their characters a bit over time.

 

[Omega Man]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of lotteries either. I've seen others deal with frustration and have felt frustration myself from this kind of thing. The points-buy option has me thinking (thinking happy thoughts, too). I'm going to muck around with that idea and work it into my campaign.

 

[Sturn]

My only concern is that I don't want rapid character advancement, since I don't want "leveling up" being the primary focus of my Traveller game, and 1 EXP per game may be too much. I just want players to be able to tweak their characters a bit over time.

So just require a number of XPs per level. As in, you need 5 XPs (put tick marks beside skills on a character sheeet) before you increase a level. You could adjust the XP requirement up or down to fit your needs.

 

[-Daniel-]

I'm not a fan of rolling for advancement, it has created frustration amongst my players in the past ....

I agree. Advancement is a reward and as such should be clear and understandable. If a player does everything I ask of them to get another level of a skill then fails to get it because the rolled too low etc, this means it is no longer a reward. It is a lotto.

I will stick to a system that is fixed to a goal and once reached the player will be rewarded. No dice needed.

Daniel

 

[AKAmra]

My only concern is that I don't want rapid character advancement, since I don't want "leveling up" being the primary focus of my Traveller game, and 1 EXP per game may be too much. I just want players to be able to tweak their characters a bit over time.

So just require a number of XPs per level. As in, you need 5 XPs (put tick marks beside skills on a character sheeet) before you increase a level. You could adjust the XP requirement up or down to fit your needs.

That's a good suggestion and and option if the 1 EXP = RAW 1 week training causes the characters to advance too rapidly. However, I was purposely attempting to change the RAW as little as possible with my first suggestion. I'm more than willing to get more radical if I feel it's necessary.

Using the sample character in the core book, he ended up with about 17 skill levels (you can pump this up if you make 0 level skills worth .05 or 1). Therefore, at 1 EXP per game, it would take 17 games + the skill level advancement desired to make the advancement. That doesn't look too fast to me, it might even be too slow for some. I think I'd run with it and see how it plays.

 

[Infojunky]

Is there any mechanic for improving Characteristics in play?

 

[FallingPhoenix]

I can sorta see the current system as making sense with the more skills you have the harder it is to get more, but there again the brain is a muscle like any other and the more you use it, not to mention physical skills like athletics and stealth where one would expect training in one to make learning the other easier.

On the other hand, keeping a certain level of skill in something takes "maintenance time" if you will. I played the cello for five years about ten years ago, and I can tell you it would take some real time picking that skill up again (I still have the basics down, but I'm certainly not at the level I was).

So the more skills you have, the more time to learn a new skill because you have to spend more time maintaining the skills you have.

 

[AKAmra]

I can sorta see the current system as making sense with the more skills you have the harder it is to get more, but there again the brain is a muscle like any other and the more you use it, not to mention physical skills like athletics and stealth where one would expect training in one to make learning the other easier.

On the other hand, keeping a certain level of skill in something takes "maintenance time" if you will. I played the cello for five years about ten years ago, and I can tell you it would take some real time picking that skill up again (I still have the basics down, but I'm certainly not at the level I was).

So the more skills you have, the more time to learn a new skill because you have to spend more time maintaining the skills you have.

I think FallingPhoenix is exactly right with "maintenance time" being used in MGT as a braking system in the advancement scheme. Whether or not it's completely realistic, it makes game balance sense. It replaces escalating EXP costs (or weeks of training) to "level up" in other systems.

Gerzel - I think you may be treading into "default" skill level territory here. For example I could argue as a player that my Diplomat 3 should give me some bonus in a Persuade attempt, say Diplomat -2 for a +1DM. This argument has merit, and can be handled by GM fiat. I think that this level of definition is beyond MGT's intent as a system to strictly define. I would suggest GURPS 4e for ideas on skill defaults if you want some inspiration along these lines. I'm leaning towards just winging it for MGT and I definitely don't want to try to incorporate it into an advancement system for MGT, although I'd be happy to read whatever somebody else came up with if they decided to tackle it.

 

[Golan2072]

That's a good suggestion and and option if the 1 EXP = RAW 1 week training causes the characters to advance too rapidly. However, I was purposely attempting to change the RAW as little as possible with my first suggestion. I'm more than willing to get more radical if I feel it's necessary.

I like the 1 XP=1 Week option, though I'd also allow the PCs to advance skills by training (as per RAW, but you'll need to do little else that week to make it count; you could train in jump-space, but not in an adventure-filled planetside week). So the reward would be rapid advancement in comparison to non-adventurers. XP rewards should be very low - 1 or 2 per session at most - or else it would imbalance the game.

 

[MaskedFrog]

Traveller is not really meant as an advancement game. Your character has been pretty well developed during the character generation process. I would use the MGT system as a base and just modify what constitutes a week of training for a particular skill. I would say that you would need to spend say 40 hours per week training a skill. Training could include constant use of a skill during the campaign.

Personally I think since you are starting out as a seasoned character, there is not as much need to advance your skills without taking a long time to do so. I see Traveller as more about the role playing experience than character development after character generation.

 

[AKAmra]

Traveller is not really meant as an advancement game. Your character has been pretty well developed during the character generation process. I would use the MGT system as a base and just modify what constitutes a week of training for a particular skill. I would say that you would need to spend say 40 hours per week training a skill. Training could include constant use of a skill during the campaign.

Personally I think since you are starting out as a seasoned character, there is not as much need to advance your skills without taking a long time to do so. I see Traveller as more about the role playing experience than character development after character generation.

I mostly agree with your points. Traveller, as written, isn't meant for the Child to Hero type game (like D&D). I'm not fond of those types of games anymore, perhaps because my "child" years are so far behind me now. I like systems that allow you to start as a seasoned character and not be concerned about gaining new cool powers (as a side rant, I especially dislike all the "power-up" Feat-like subsystems which seem to be cropping up in RPG's lately - but thankfully not in MGT!). Role playing and story should indeed be the focus.

However, I do want a simple system for a character to add a wanted skill to their repertoire or to tweak their character a bit after creation. I see my players adding new, low level skill(s) rather than trying to increase that level 3 skill to level 4.

 

[AKAmra]

Is there any mechanic for improving Characteristics in play?

The only way I can think of to increase characteristics per RAW is Augmentations. Given how touchy the "2d6 roll 8+" system is to DMs, I don't think this is a bad thing. Besides, going back to MaskedFrog's point that MGT characters tend to represent mature, seasoned characters; if the PC was going to change something so basic as Characteristics he/she would have already done so (in other words you can assume those attempts were already addressed in the PC's backstory).

 

[Kautsu]

Hello,

Here is my suggestion for character advancement based on the fact the skill description holds, not the silly system we have now. Okay, it has one major drawback for those munchins and other low lifeforms - it does require lots of time to advance. And, yes, I am an experienced gamer who is fed up with the character genearation system using different principles as character advancement. Thes systems created on idea that 40 years old character cannto do much and in the first year of adventuring you learn more than that 40 years of life.

In Traveller where logic should rule, the age should matter. That means older and more experienced character should be better skilled than younger character- even after character generation ended. The current system just breaks that image very fast.

The description of skill levels in rulebok says it requires years of practice to advance skill by one rank. The advancement rules does not simulate tihs at all. I posted to rulemasters thread example how current system allows you ot train 22 years old Wesley Crusher to Engineering +7 in a year with current system.

My system is simple: It takes as many years of practice to advance the skill as the next rank is. Thus from +3 to +4 it requires 4 years. I can hear the lowlife yelling "but that is too slow". Life is. And that system makes advancement of character generation closer to the advancement while game goes on.

The gamemaster keeps track on how much time character has spent on training. It is up to referee to decide which resolution he wants to use - weeks, days, or years as single quantum, but my idea includes that you can practice and be instructed on 2 things at the time at most. The time is naturally split between them. If you have to work on more than that skills on regular basis, you are training Jack of All Trades. And with the system, most people do not want to do that. Skill use for the scale of advancement should be significant time spent daily or weekly. Naturally the skill you use for everyday working is one of the two you can study.

I just read instructions skill, and I would say instructions allows speeding up on scale week in year. Again, up to referee to decide which is the actual speed of learning, but I think it should be on scale of year or so per rank.

I am waiting for comments.

Yours Kautsu

PS: Damn I hate Forums... Only thing Web2 brought was degeneration of user interfaces... Threading of posts of same subject into bundle...

 

[Stofsk]

I always consider chargen to be full of more humdrum events than what is supposed to take place in the game proper, therefore there is less impetus to learn skills because you're not being 'tested' to the limit; the game is where your character 'matures' to the point where he (or she) is being tested.

Advancement should be slow, but should still exist IMO. I don't think taking 4 years to learn a skill is at all reasonable, however. But I do like the idea that the more experienced you are in a skill, the harder it is to advance it to the next level.

 

[MrUkpyr]

I have a relatively simple system.
Add all skill levels together and divide by two.
Add the new desired skill level.
This is how many weeks it will take to learn the new skill level
- a new skill at 0 add 2 weeks

Every 2 weeks make an End roll (8+) to "stick to your training"
Failing the roll means you lost 1 week of training.

The system takes into account that the more you know the harder it is to learn new skills, but does allow some advancement.

 

[CosmicGamer]

This is a topic that has come up often and I have given some thought. the problem is, the more I think about it, and the more realistic the system I try to make, the more complicated it gets. If I ever come up with something I like, I'll let you know. Meanwhile, I'll continue to read and pick up ideas and let you know what I think of those posted.

Kautsu, regarding your statement 'system makes advancement of character generation closer to the advancement while game goes on'. I'm going to skip level 1 and level 0 since the methods of gaining these skills can be quite different from skill level 2 and up. For your system, you make each higher skill level take longer to obtain. In normal char gen, isn't each additional skill level (after 1) equally as likely (on average, take exactly the same amount of time) to obtain?

IMO, I do believe going from skill 3 to skill 4 should be harder/take longer than going from level 1 to level 2. One of my many thoughts was a modifier of level (including zero) +1 squared but I also am thinking of just using a table and not a calculation. One reason for table(s) is because I believe that certain skills are harder, or should take longer to learn than others.
Trying to obtain level - time required
0 - 1 month
1 - 4 months
2 - 9 months
3 - 16 months
4 - 25 months
5 - 36 months
Note that additional time/modifiers for quantity of skills already known, Intelligence and so on could be implemented.

MrUkpyr, regarding using the current skill levels to determine training time. Your system is somewhat similar to the games, but by dividing by 2, the training takes even less time. A one term character can increase a skill to extremely high levels in way too short of a time period for my liking. I do like the concept of some kind of roll based on Int and/or Edu for intellectually based skills but would not consider using an End skill roll for 'sticking to training' unless it was a more physical skill.

Personally, I think that I can learn something new even faster now than I ever could, so I tend to disagree with the type of system in the book. Perhaps this is because I have a higher Edu from learning things and I know the methods of studying and memorizing that work for me. Maybe it is because I'm more mature and understand the need to learn something. Everything I just said can be thrown out the window though when talking about physical skills. I think it would be harder for me to learn physical skills now than when I was younger.

The concept that does reinforce the method in the book of adding up skill levels is that you have to spend time maintaining your skill levels so the more you have, the less time you have for training a new one. I believe there should be some concept of losing skill levels. The old 'use it or lose it' theory.

 

[sergeant_x]

Traveller is not really meant as an advancement game.

This is the reason I've come back to Traveller as my favorite game system, some 30 years after I first played it. I sometimes wonder if the lack of an advancement/reward system was a deliberate design decision, or just didn't seem important at the time. (Perhaps it's just because it was designed before D & D took off and everyone realized "advancement" was like crack for most gamers. 8) )

Experienced players sometimes feel a bit lost when they realize there are no "levels". But once they settle in, they're focused on playing the character rather than the advancement system. It promotes a different style of play that seems to me to fit the overall tone of Traveller better, though that's obviously a matter of personal preference.