stepan.razin
Mongoose
A question for y'all. When I do an ALL STOP SA, can I only travel less then half speed for that turn?
"All stop" question
- Thread starter stepan.razin
- Start date
0 to half, no turns
and on to the next question, if you end your turn in a gravity well can you sling shot?
apparantly the answer is yes (waits for arguements)
although it seems kind of counter productive to all stop and to slow down just to speed up in a gravity well
im not even going to get into the extra 45 turn
and on to the next question, if you end your turn in a gravity well can you sling shot?
apparantly the answer is yes (waits for arguements)
although it seems kind of counter productive to all stop and to slow down just to speed up in a gravity well
im not even going to get into the extra 45 turn
sidewinder
Mongoose
Heres a question. If you all stop, and you really do stop, why should you need to keep using the order to remain stationary. If you stop your momentum goes to 0, you should have the option of moving in the next turn if you want but you shouldnt be forced to.
Greg Smith
Mongoose
The movement system in ACTA is an abstraction. It does not use vector movement, it doesn't track velocities from turn to turn. It does this to keep the game simple.
All Stop! signifies that the ship has used thrusters to slow down (or stop) but has returned to normal speed the following turn. The 'default' speed if you like.
All Stop! signifies that the ship has used thrusters to slow down (or stop) but has returned to normal speed the following turn. The 'default' speed if you like.
nekomata fuyu
Mongoose
The game does already track if you've used All Stop in the previous turn however. If you didn't, you would never be able to use All Stop and Pivot.
It therefore wouldn't make the game any more complicated if you could use All Stop as a free order if you've used All Stop or All Stop and Pivot in a previous turn.
It therefore wouldn't make the game any more complicated if you could use All Stop as a free order if you've used All Stop or All Stop and Pivot in a previous turn.
Greg Smith
Mongoose
That is a good idea.
(this is a Devil's advocate argument, I'm not posting my personal opinion)
If you follow that logic you might as well have three speed "bands" for each ship (like 2nd ed. 40k) - all stop, normal and all power to the engines. If you're going to get the all stop as a "free" special action because you did it the previous turn then you should have the same apply to all power. Then you get to the point where it would be much easier to have speed counters for each ship.
The next logical argument is that if you're recording the speed for each ship, why not record their exact speed rather than a "band" and you can just have an acceleration value for each ship rather than a speed value.
I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this
If you follow that logic you might as well have three speed "bands" for each ship (like 2nd ed. 40k) - all stop, normal and all power to the engines. If you're going to get the all stop as a "free" special action because you did it the previous turn then you should have the same apply to all power. Then you get to the point where it would be much easier to have speed counters for each ship.
The next logical argument is that if you're recording the speed for each ship, why not record their exact speed rather than a "band" and you can just have an acceleration value for each ship rather than a speed value.
I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
Start playing Full Thrust instead? :wink:
nekomata fuyu
Mongoose
That would also class as a slippery slope fallacy, saying that by taking the first step you have to follow through to physics realistic mechanics. Such a fallacy also equally applies to the current rules.
My point is that the mechanics already have the "complication" of having to track if the ship has used All Stop in the previous turn, so being able to All Stop as a free action adds no extra drawback to the rules. If having to track All Stop is considered too complicated, then All Stop and Pivot should be scrapped instead.
My point is that the mechanics already have the "complication" of having to track if the ship has used All Stop in the previous turn, so being able to All Stop as a free action adds no extra drawback to the rules. If having to track All Stop is considered too complicated, then All Stop and Pivot should be scrapped instead.
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
No, Triggy's right - if you implement All Stop as a free action for a ship that All Stopped in the previous turn you'd have to do the same for All Power to Engines, otherwise it's unfair. If you make one rule more realistic you must do it for all movement-related rules.
nekomata fuyu
Mongoose
It wouldn't be necessary at all. It's conceivable that fighting at such high velocities would interfere with several of the other SAs, even if the ship would naturally say at that velocity itself. That isn't to say that APTE shouldn't be free as a continued action, just that it's a separate issue. It's very easy to argue that having to track APTE would be a minimal complication to the game seeing as we're already tracking AS/ASAP.
The original point though is that you don't get to AS as a continued action because hav ing to track if the ship used AS in the previous turn was considered too complicated, even though you have to track it anyway. If this really is the case, ASAP should be removed.
The original point though is that you don't get to AS as a continued action because hav ing to track if the ship used AS in the previous turn was considered too complicated, even though you have to track it anyway. If this really is the case, ASAP should be removed.
Dr Stubbsberg
Mongoose
following that logic, wouldn't you have to 'all stop' on the turn after using 'all power to the engines' just to return to normal speed? Would you be able to drop from full speed to nothing in one turn? (similarly would an stopped ship be able to go straight into 'all power to the engines')
nekomata fuyu
Mongoose
If you're following Triggy's logic, then sure, you must make the game rediculously complicated as soon as you make it more complicated than randomly rolling dice.
If you're following my logic, then you don't have to, as the added level of complexity may not be worth the extra depth it adds to the game.
If you're following my logic, then you don't have to, as the added level of complexity may not be worth the extra depth it adds to the game.
Foxmeister
Mongoose
The fluff for SAs states:
Squeezing extra power out of the engines so that the ship can travel 50% faster rates as "extraordinary" in my book, whereas bringing a ship to a halt and holding station seems to me to be a rather ordinary run of the mill operation IMHO.
Thus, I see no contradiction between "All Stop" effectively being a continual free SA for subsequent turns, whereas APtE would not.
Regards,
Dave
Squeezing extra power out of the engines so that the ship can travel 50% faster rates as "extraordinary" in my book, whereas bringing a ship to a halt and holding station seems to me to be a rather ordinary run of the mill operation IMHO.
Thus, I see no contradiction between "All Stop" effectively being a continual free SA for subsequent turns, whereas APtE would not.
Regards,
Dave
I would say it would make sense and would not be difficult to implement .............
HOWEVER
It also worth considering do we want it in the game - I think it results in ships sitting on their table edge on CBD as well, because they All Stopped on the first turn.
Thinking of Minbari, and to a certain extent Gaim........
Depends on what we want from/for the game as well as what is logical? :?:
HOWEVER
It also worth considering do we want it in the game - I think it results in ships sitting on their table edge on CBD as well, because they All Stopped on the first turn.
Thinking of Minbari, and to a certain extent Gaim........
Depends on what we want from/for the game as well as what is logical? :?:
nekomata fuyu
Mongoose
If I want certain ships not to be sitting at the back of the board, I want it to be because they have reason not to sit at the back of the board, not just because some big booming voice turns up and says "Thou shalt not stop".
They can presently sit at the back of the board, but this change would enable them to do so whilst also Closing the Blast Doors or Concentrating All Firepower - which I am not so sure is a good idea?
In balance terms as bad as allowing All Power and CBD? / Concentrate ?
As I said the logic is sound - but the effects are a worry but without playing it can't tell you how much?
In balance terms as bad as allowing All Power and CBD? / Concentrate ?
As I said the logic is sound - but the effects are a worry but without playing it can't tell you how much?
stepan.razin
Mongoose
Burger said:
Probably not, ACTA abstractions do not allow for common sense.
