All Stop & Pivot question.

[jjdodger]

If a ship has a "turn score" of 2/45, and performs an "All Stop & Pivot", does it get to turn 90 degrees, or 180? The rules simply state to "double the turn rate", but what is the "rate", 45 or 2x45 for 90?

Thanks!

Jeff

 

[MustEatBrains]

it´s turn would be 90 degrees - the turn score cocists of the turn number (2(, and he turn rate (45)

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Has that been officially stated, or is that just a fan interpretation?
As far as I can see in the rules, it never once defines the angle component on its own as the turn rate. In fact, the time it mentions the the word "rate" it is in reference to the angle and multiplier together. This would mean that a 2/45° ship can turn at a total rate of 90° per turn, which would then become 180° with AS&P.

 

[MustEatBrains]

In fact, the time it mentions the the word "rate" it is in reference to the angle and multiplier together. This would mean that a 2/45° ship can turn at a total rate of 90° per turn, which would then become 180° with AS&P.

It can´t turn 90°, it can turn 45° twice, with some movement in between.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Which means that it can turn 90° per (game) turn.

edit: damn English language and its words of many meanings :evil:

 

[zulu01]

What difference does it make? Any turn greater than 90 has the exact same effect in game terms, right?

 

[MustEatBrains]

All stop and pivot allows for a single turn, of up to double the ship´´s turn rating. A ship with 2/45 has two single turns of 45 degrees each, which would mean that any doubled single turn would be at 90 degrees.

Besides, if the turns were added up, it would make the whole "maximum of double turn rate" thing preTty redundant, since the ability to run 180 degrees in any direction would simply mean that you could turn into any direction you want. And ships with 2/90 would have a theoretical turn of 360 degrees with the special order, which is even more redundant.

Still, that IS an interpretation of the rules (and I hope a valid and logical one), so I have no problems being corrected in case I´m wrong.

 

[Jhary]

Normaly you have to move at least the halv of youre movement before you can make a turn. So with all stop you can stay where you are no movenet forward. with all stop and pivot you make ONE with the possibilty to turn the double rate. Evering else woud let me ask for what is SM then good if every Brike in Space can turn on a dime.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

All stop and pivot allows for a single turn, of up to double the ship´´s turn rating. A ship with 2/45 has two single turns of 45 degrees each, which would mean that any doubled single turn would be at 90 degrees.

Again, you're ignoring half of the ships turn rating. The turn rating of the ship is not 45° - it's 2/45°. This means that it can turn a total of 90° within a single movement round.
Put another way, a doubled single turn would indeed be 90°, but that is not what the rules mention. The rules mention doubling the turn rate, and the turn rate is two single turns. 2 x 2 x 45° = 180°.

Note that this doesn't make the whole idea redundant, because a significant number of ships have a turn rate of 1/45°. 2 x 1 x 45° = 90°. These ships take two such turns to do an about turn.

 

[MustEatBrains]

Again, you're ignoring half of the ships turn rating.

I´m not ignoring anything, I said what I think about how it´s handled, and why. Since this is a vital part of every´game, I´m surprised there hasn´t been a definite answer yet - sure this is a situation that comes up a lot? Anyway, my interpretation is how those in my gaming group see it as well - don´t have the rules within reach at the moment though, so I can´t go over the exact wording. But like I said, should I be wrong its ok with me.

 

[Triggy]

All stop and pivot allows for a single turn, of up to double the ship´´s turn rating. A ship with 2/45 has two single turns of 45 degrees each, which would mean that any doubled single turn would be at 90 degrees.

Again, you're ignoring half of the ships turn rating. The turn rating of the ship is not 45° - it's 2/45°. This means that it can turn a total of 90° within a single movement round.
Put another way, a doubled single turn would indeed be 90°, but that is not what the rules mention. The rules mention doubling the turn rate, and the turn rate is two single turns. 2 x 2 x 45° = 180°.

Note that this doesn't make the whole idea redundant, because a significant number of ships have a turn rate of 1/45°. 2 x 1 x 45° = 90°. These ships take two such turns to do an about turn.

It does seem to me that a single turn of half the ship's turn rating indicates that for a 2/45 ship, you can make two turns on 45 normally, meaning that a single turn would normally be 45 and using All Stop and Pivot this would be a single turn of 90.

 

[Burger]

There is a case for both ways. I guess it's one for Rulesmasters.

 

[MustEatBrains]

But how have players handled this up to now? I mean, surely there must have been many hundreds of games since 2nd ed was released, so this situation must have come up once or twice?

 

[katadder]

use the single turn. conssider that if you have a 2/45 ship thats no agile with speed 8. to turn 90 degrees this ship has to have moved 6". with all stop and pivot for the same turn you dont move, which at knife fight range makes for easier boresights.

 

[Jhary]

All stop and pivot allows for a single turn, of up to double the ship´´s turn rating. A ship with 2/45 has two single turns of 45 degrees each, which would mean that any doubled single turn would be at 90 degrees.

Again, you're ignoring half of the ships turn rating. The turn rating of the ship is not 45° - it's 2/45°. This means that it can turn a total of 90° within a single movement round.
Put another way, a doubled single turn would indeed be 90°, but that is not what the rules mention. The rules mention doubling the turn rate, and the turn rate is two single turns. 2 x 2 x 45° = 180°.

Note that this doesn't make the whole idea redundant, because a significant number of ships have a turn rate of 1/45°. 2 x 1 x 45° = 90°. These ships take two such turns to do an about turn.

And you ignore the phrase ONE Turn with double rate not TWO turns with Double rate. What you Intreped is like i don´t turn for 2 turn then i make all the turns i didn´t used at once.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

And you ignore the phrase ONE Turn with double rate not TWO turns with Double rate. What you Intreped is like i don´t turn for 2 turn then i make all the turns i didn´t used at once.

Incorrect. I am only allowing one turn at double the turn rate. What you are arguing for is one turn at double of a single turn. Single turn =/= Turn rate.

As Burger says though, it's one that needs an official ruling purely because it's so sloppily written and the intent could be either way. As it stands though, the only time the word rate is mentioned in regards to turning is in reference to the full X/Y°, rather than just the Y°.

 

[katadder]

the turn rate is what you can turn in one single turn. the fact that you can make more than one turn at this rate is down to independant ships.
a ship with turns 2/45 can turn 90 degrees once on AS&P.

 

[greenboy]

We play double the first turn add the second so ships with 1/45 turns turn 90 and ships with 2/45 turn 135 seemed fairer more agile ships get to turn further

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Mongoose reply in rulemasters. They're defining/amending "turn rate" to be the partial rate of turn. At the end of the day it's no biggy as long as we have an official rule.