AJP bomb and how it works

[Locutus9956]

According to the unrevised rulebook (p12) under special actions.

Crew Quality Checks
A Crew Quality Check is performed by rolling 1d6 and adding the ship's Crew Quality score. If the total matches that listed in the Special Action's description, the action is succesful and will be performed. A 6 on this kind of Crew Quality check is always a success. If failed, the ship moves as normal.

(my emphasis).

So 6 is an automatic succes for special actions. So it would depend whether jump point bombing is a special action.

Haha! I knew it Anyway, back to the matter at hand:

JPBombs in my eyes ARE legitimate tactic and it is seen used on the show albeit only once. Its simply a fact of the B5 univers, Jump points cause damage they open on top of you.

However as it stands they are simply far to easy to achieve. Reducing the radius (as in 2nd ed) is one thing and WILL help a bit but its still not enough.

There is one possible solution however that seems to have been overlooked. Increase the scatter. CQ is already a factor in how accurate the point is but with the current rules AJPs are never going to scatter more than 2" which means in vritually every case youre still goint to get your target in the 4" blast range if you position your jump point 2" behind your target initially. And youve got a 2 in 3 chance of it being 100% accurate anyway! And thats for any flight computer controlled ship, for ISA with their higher CQ its even worse.

Alternate suggestion to some of the previous ones then: Drop blast range to 2", increase scatter to 2d6-CQ for AJP, 3d6-CQ for regular ones. It may sound like alot but thats a risk you have to take when jumping in.

 

[Burger]

The ISA player can do this in turn 1, 4, 7, and 10.

Actually 1, 5 and 9. The jump engines take 3 turns to recharge after you perform the IJP! special action. But otherwise totally agreed!

However as it stands they are simply far to easy to achieve. Reducing the radius (as in 2nd ed) is one thing and WILL help a bit but its still not enough.

Agreed totally. Increasing scatter isn't a good idea for me though... it punishes the tactical placement player as well as the cheesy powergamer.

 

[Locutus9956]

Not really, increasing the scatter isnt that big an effect on the 'tactical player' Im mean youre still talking about a maximum 10" scatter for ISA (and on average rolls your talking about a 3" scatter (and only 6 or 7 on average for regular JPs) thats much difference for the JUMP POINTS possition isnt going to have a HUGE effect on the game (you can after all manuever your ships as they enter!)

 

[Burger]

6" or 7" will have a huge impact if they scatter off the table!!!
And 10" is a massive amount of scatter, it would totally ruin any tactics based on jumping in close, or between asteroid fields, or between enemy ships.

 

[Locutus9956]

Maybe put a limit on it then of something like a maximum scatter of 8"? And if it would scatter off the table it stops at the table edge?

Again just throwing this one out there as possibilities.

 

[Burger]

It's certainly a possibility yes but all these "ifs" and "buts" are a bit concerning for me. Simplicity is good. A CQ 11 or 12 check and reduction in blast radius to 1" or 2" seems like a much simpler solution and actually adds to the show accuracy, that only elite crews can do it.

Though personally I'd prefer it was removed totally, except for specific scenarios, just like in the show.

 

[Reaverman]

Actually 1, 5 and 9. The jump engines take 3 turns to recharge

Ooops, yeah that

 

[cordas]

Hmmm I didn't think Locutus and my addaption of JPBing made it impossible to do, it just limits the effectiveness and harshness of it.

As far as I am concerned it is a valid way to shock your opponents and bring ships in close, but its not a giant hyperspace hammer to be used to destroy your opponent when he has no hope of ever being able to fight back against it.

Making it so that you can't open a JP within X" of an already open JP to me makes sense, in the TV show you never see JPs being openned on top of each over, yes they are seen close together but when you see the swarms of ships coming out they ain't that close (and this is a table top game where range is abstract anyway, e-mines and ship explosions cover larger areas of space than planets....).

We only ever saw 1 JP open inside another (and that was a JP gate) and the only reason why Sheridans Whitestar didn't die was because the story demanded that it didn't (after all killing Sheridan and Delen then would rather have scuppered the TV story), we also know that Earth never used this tactic against the Minbari... Why not? Why didn't they try JPBing at the Battle of the Line? We know they couldn't shot the Minbari beacuse of their stealth so area effect attcks should have been a no brainer....

 

[cordas]

6" or 7" will have a huge impact if they scatter off the table!!!
And 10" is a massive amount of scatter, it would totally ruin any tactics based on jumping in close, or between asteroid fields, or between enemy ships.

If you want to use risky stratergies using Green Crew then thats upto you, but you can't get upset if your green crew mess up.

Use military grade grade crew and the chances of scattering are reduced to a rather unlikely maximum scatter of 8", but for more likely around 3-4".

 

[cordas]

The bonehead manouver required a jump point to be opened inside a jump gate. The discussions following it suggest that it will only work if a jump gate is used (and destroyed).

There is no on-screen evidence as to what would happen if a jump point is opened inside another jump point.

Maybe the reason we never saw a JP being openned inside a JP was beacuse captains had basic common sense and knew that it would kill their ships and not do much else....

 

[Burger]

The bonehead manouver required a jump point to be opened inside a jump gate. The discussions following it suggest that it will only work if a jump gate is used (and destroyed).

There is no on-screen evidence as to what would happen if a jump point is opened inside another jump point.

Maybe the reason we never saw a JP being openned inside a JP was beacuse captains had basic common sense and knew that it would kill their ships and not do much else....

Possibly... but its just speculation. How about:

- CQ roll of 11 to JPB
- Blast radius reduced to 2"
- If JP scatters to within 2" of another JP then the 2nd JP fails to open and ship's jump engines are damaged for the rest of the battle (the trait is lost). The first JP and shp are unaffected (still allowing entry onto the table, so not punishing the innocent/unlucky scatter rolls).

That way JP bombs are hard to achieve, radius is more realistic, and you can't do more than 1 against the same target.

 

[tneva82]

Maybe the reason we never saw a JP being openned inside a JP was beacuse captains had basic common sense and knew that it would kill their ships and not do much else....

Yeah...Ships that can survive from the process are: White star and...Umm...Are there other equally fast ships? Fighters maybe but then again they can't open up jump point so moot point.

 

[Locutus9956]

The bonehead manouver required a jump point to be opened inside a jump gate. The discussions following it suggest that it will only work if a jump gate is used (and destroyed).

There is no on-screen evidence as to what would happen if a jump point is opened inside another jump point.

Maybe the reason we never saw a JP being openned inside a JP was beacuse captains had basic common sense and knew that it would kill their ships and not do much else....

Possibly... but its just speculation. How about:

- CQ roll of 11 to JPB
- Blast radius reduced to 2"
- If JP scatters to within 2" of another JP then the 2nd JP fails to open and ship's jump engines are damaged for the rest of the battle (the trait is lost). The first JP and shp are unaffected (still allowing entry onto the table, so not punishing the innocent/unlucky scatter rolls).

That way JP bombs are hard to achieve, radius is more realistic, and you can't do more than 1 against the same target.

I like it but the last one seems a bit harsh. Id say the second one just fails to open, doesnt trash your jump engines (they do have to wait 3 turns to be used again though)

 

[katadder]

well going by the S&P article - the radius is reduced to 2". its a CQ10 however and you must have scouts on the board to carry it out. and must have advanced jump engines too.

personally i think if both fleets have ships in hyperspace you should have a seperate hyperspace board. then if you JPB someone you not doing anything else and the enemy ships can target you

 

[cordas]

Possibly... but its just speculation. How about:

- CQ roll of 11 to JPB
- Blast radius reduced to 2"
- If JP scatters to within 2" of another JP then the 2nd JP fails to open and ship's jump engines are damaged for the rest of the battle (the trait is lost). The first JP and shp are unaffected (still allowing entry onto the table, so not punishing the innocent/unlucky scatter rolls).

That way JP bombs are hard to achieve, radius is more realistic, and you can't do more than 1 against the same target.

Sounds reasonable to me, but again we would have seen far more of JPBoming done in the show if it was so "easy". What do you loose by trying it...

I still like the idea of it actually doing more damage to the ship(s) in hyperspace, maybe have it that both JPs close and both ships loose their jump engines... Unless there is a 3rd ship in hyperspace with them to open a JP for them to enter the battle they take no further part in the battle. In campaign games they are assumed to be able to bodge repair their engines and are availble next turn, but need to spend rr points to fix their engines (same as repairing a crit).

This is harsher than your idea but a lot easier than Locutus and my original idea.

As for the issue of exploding JPs doing damage to ships in real space, I am against that because it would mean you could sacrifice 2 patrol craft to take out valen only knows what in real space.... In game terms its a game breaker. The Bonehead manouver can only be done with using a Jump Point, and even then its serverly frowned upon, enough to get the captain courtmartialed and maybe spaced for destroying such a valuable and strategic resoruce. You could even say its nearly as bad as using Mass Drivers on planets.

 

[Reaverman]

personally i think if both fleets have ships in hyperspace you should have a seperate hyperspace board. then if you JPB someone you not doing anything else and the enemy ships can target you

Whilst that would be interesting, I think of at least 3 points it can't be done;

1. The practicallity of having double your number of gaming tables

2. The fact that you are splitting your game up, and the time factor

3. Hyperspace does not duplicate its real space opposite, so would make hunting your opponent hard (unless he is loitering near a jumpgate). Just becuase you depoly your JP near another JP, does not always mean in Hyperspace they are so close. They could be millions of miles apart, facing in opposite directions.

Just my opinion anyway

 

[Burger]

I still like the idea of it actually doing more damage to the ship(s) in hyperspace, maybe have it that both JPs close and both ships loose their jump engines...

Yes there should be a punishment/cost/risk for people who JP bomb, but this is way to harsh on tthose whose JPs accidentally scatter. They have basically lost the game, because they rolled 1 scatter dice badly.

 

[cordas]

I still like the idea of it actually doing more damage to the ship(s) in hyperspace, maybe have it that both JPs close and both ships loose their jump engines...

Yes there should be a punishment/cost/risk for people who JP bomb, but this is way to harsh on tthose whose JPs accidentally scatter. They have basically lost the game, because they rolled 1 scatter dice badly.

And having a ship explode beside your capital ship and score 1 hit on its hull 6, then crit 6,6 or 4,6 or any other really nasty crit isn't harsh... Or having 1 fighter do the same, or having 1AD beam carve a ship into mince when it gets 8 hits, and from those 3 crits. (All examples are things I have witnessed happen in games)

Yes sometimes dice rolls go horribly wrong and things turn pear shaped, I don't see why that shouldn't apply to openning JPs as well.

If the rules are there and they are fair (a seperate arguement) then its upto the player to think about the risks of openning multipul JPs (afterall its not like he needs a JP for each ship.... he only needs one to bring on all his ships) and he decides that his green crew as you use in all your debates are going to open a JP within scattering range of an existing JP and he happens to roll unlucky on both the CQ check and the scatter dice (a seperate roll) then tough s*%t... he didn't have to try it....

 

[Burger]

I still like the idea of it actually doing more damage to the ship(s) in hyperspace, maybe have it that both JPs close and both ships loose their jump engines...

Yes there should be a punishment/cost/risk for people who JP bomb, but this is way to harsh on tthose whose JPs accidentally scatter. They have basically lost the game, because they rolled 1 scatter dice badly.

And having a ship explode beside your capital ship and score 1 hit on its hull 6, then crit 6,6 or 4,6 or any other really nasty crit isn't harsh... Or having 1 fighter do the same, or having 1AD beam carve a ship into mince when it gets 8 hits, and from those 3 crits. (All examples are things I have witnessed happen in games)

True, but no need to add more 1-shot-victory conditions to the game.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one

 

[cordas]

True, but no need to add more 1-shot-victory conditions to the game.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one

but I want the last word.....

and the word shall be

Urglebeep!!!!